Should all speed-endurance and special-endurance always be with full recovey in all phases except gpp, when intens.tempo is done.(I often use walks or 3-5 min rest in the gpp.)
If so, what are supose to differ from spp,pre-comp and comp?
(If you use 2 speed, 1 SE/SE 2.)
On any speed, speed end. or SE workout you should go on close-to, if not full rest.
My new coach today had us doing lactate tolerance work today. rest was only 10 mins!!!
the workout was supposed to be 4x300 right now i am about a 35.6 36.0 runner.
we did the first 300 in 38.0 2nd in 37.9 and 3rd in 45!!!
we were soooooo deaD after the second rep. felt like we had just ran a 400 in a meet. our legs burned like hell. he said he likes to work lactate tolerance for his runner who run the 400 then later on give us more rest during comp phase.
note:and he knows what he is doing. he was 10th at olympic trials in decath as well as an NFL Defensive back for the Bills and 49’ers. He goes mainly by Charlies principals and has even met charlie where Charlie had wokred with one of his old athletes that he also trained. He was also the speed development coach at arizona state for a while.
Not sure what to make of the workout but you shouldn’t be falling off that much, so, I must assume that the speed was too high to start off with. Was this the first session? Did you finish? If your best is 35.5 CURRENTLY, then the breaks should be tolerable- but if you’re not in that form this could be too much as you say.
yes this was the first time doing this workout. This was the first time doing anything at that intenisty with that short of recovery. Right now i am def in 35.6-36.0 shape as the first meet of the season which was a month ago i ran 36.33 and 2 weeks later ran 22.75.
Charlie would you ever have your quarter milers doing such workouts like the one i mentioned?
Not really. We did as many as three reps with a much longer break- but very fast! (Though we usually wouldn’t do more than two once competition was under way)
Desai Williams (Oly 100m Finalist in Seoul) once ran 3 x 300 from a stand in 31.2, 31.4, 31.2 with a 20min recovery break in phase two of a triple period plan. Though he only ran one 400 after high school, he did it in 45.91- BUT, he ran it from lane 9 with the intention of pacing the other Canadian athletes through a fast 300. He basically stopped at 300 (31.9) as planned, but a couple of people started yelling “keep going!”, as he was so far in front, - so he RE-STARTED and still ran 45.9.
i see. yes prior to this session we have done 3x300 all around 36.2-36.6 and hit them right on each rep. But as you said we had 20 mins rest.
But my coach said that for us lactate tolerance training with 10 min recvoery is the focus, especially with the athletes that run up to 400 meters in meets?
What do you think about this type of work? and will we benefit from it?
We never did it. We either went flat out with long recoveries or went slower with more reps and short breaks.
coming from a past with a 800m background, we did lactate tolerance work for a fair chuck of the seassion. Generally, like charlie says, you try to go for more reps with less recovery, basically like a extensive tempo if you like, or if you are unfit like you say, normal tempo till you are fit in that regard then progress to extensive tempo, then when you are fit enough from that, then try your flat out 300’s, you will or should be able to do as charlie say, 3 * 300m flat out with max recovery. Try to that when you are unfit, and you’ll more than likely find your 2nd flat out 300m will be rather slowwww. So get fit, make the muscles used to the work load, and you’ll be fine for the super fast 300’s.
boldwarrior,
im fit. i have been training since october and i actually ran in 2 meets already and opened up with my best 1st 200 and long jump i have ever started a season with.
What i was sayibn is that i have done workouts like you and charlie said such as 3x300 with 20 misn rest and i had been able to do them sucessfully. All in the 36.6 range which is 98% of my P.R.
But now (this week) that my coach has taken over (who has been with football) he had us do 3-4 300’s with 10 min rest instead of the full 20 mins and run them a bit slower. And we had a real hard time with this. But he said that this should have been done first before the work i had been doing with the full recovery. He said lactate tolerance is impt to be able ot run the 400.
You see what i am saying? i guess now its a matter of adaptation to the shorter recvoery and lactic acid buffering. ??
You definitally need to lactic acid buffer ability, 3-4 300’s will work, but only to an extent, you really got to do more and more of them, for its purpose, you cant really go faster, you can only either do more of them or futher distance, being a 400 m runner, try to only stick to the 300’s and work up to doing more of them, if you can only do 3 today, make sure tomorow you do at least 3 and maybe 1/2 of the 4th rep, then next time try for 4 and a bit ect ect untill you get to around 8ish. You should have plenty lactate tolorance by then, and see your flat out 300’s improve out of sight once you start up the fast stuff again. But inbetween your sessions of lactate tolorance, make sure you still do the short fast stuff, like 60’s or such. Bascially, its spewing up material, but if you want to get good over a 400’m, it has to be done.
8x300?? i dont know about that. But i can see us doing 4. Remember, the speed wasnt slow. It was still above 90% of our P.R.!!! With the exeption of the last one. 35.6 divided by .90 = 39.5!! and 95% is 37.5 and we ran the first 2 in 38.0 and 37.9.
Of course the short fast stuff isnt being ignored. But thats a whole other thing.We were used to doing 4x30 out of blocks, 4x flying 30’s and 1-2 60’s but this week just like he changed our special end. workout he also changed that by giving us 3x3x50 to do with 1 min between reps and 3 min between sets. i know that really isnt accel or max v it is a form of neuromuscualr speed endurance. But he said we will get to true max v work but right now he wants us doing that as he feels like some other coaches it may be a fatigue mechanism in the 100 dash as well as the longer sprints. And since atp is almost fully replenished after 1 minute i think his logic is to use that to our advantage but im not quite clear on it.
What are you doing during the rest interval, whether 10 or 20 minutes?
Walking, jogging, other?
walking, laying down with legs up, and if i am in pain doing both of those things with addition to yelling and screaming while i squat and roll around on the ground
1.Charlie, so you recomend full recovery in all phases with the SE-work?
- But what are the diffirens between pases then, the distances, less races/seassion?
3.Are these runs taking care of the lactade tolerance to, or should lactade be an special seassion?
Thanks…
If my PB for 300 was 36 sec. I would go from
2x3x300 (10 min break, 20-25 between sets) at 43 secs
to
3x300 at 39-40 secs (10 min break)
to
2-3x300 as close to PB as possible with next to full recovery (20-25 min break)
Although I would not always stick to running 300…
That’s what I learned from the old GDR books - does it make sense?
(After the coming season I want to change to 400m…I’ll try then)
If it’s Special Endurance, yes, I recommend full recovery - but SE can be done in the form of split-runs. ie, 250+100 (45 to 60sec between) for 2 sets with 20 to 35 min recovery between sets.
Sounds like intensive tempo- which could be done leading into special end.
All this appears to be going in the wrong direction. You’d be best to do more reps slower to build fitness first- but, certainly you DON’T go from SE with full recovery to “SE” with partial recovery when the meets have already started. In other words your SE will be getting slower instead of faster- as it must if you want to improve!
Charlie,
What do you think of the idea of running intensive tempo 200’s-300’s (85-90%. max vol: 1100m ) with shorter recovery (6-8mins) in the pre-comp and OCCASIONALLY comp phase as a means of getting a lactic tolerance stimulus to the 400m athlete while reducing the CNS stress if a lot of speed, speed endurance and special endurance was being carried out in addition to competitions?
Also, do you think the 3x300m with 20mins recovery would in general be executed better by a 200m runner than 400m type??? Would a workout like 1x350,1x320, 1x300m with 25-35 mins recovery be more beneficial (and a better indicator for 400m athletic shape) to a 400 runner in the pre-comp/early comp phase?
Thanks!