This is a great thread, and I also have a question re: SE work.
I remember snelkracht mentioning in another thread (I think Chris30’s journal) that he recommended doing 2-8week cycles of SE2 running each at a pace that allows you to start and finish at about the same pace, but the rest was no more than like 5 mins. How does this work, or would it?
You can always start and finish at the same pace, regardless of the rest period, if the pace is slow enough. It all depends on the objective of the training session. But if you want to improve performance, fast SE is the name of the game.
what everyone has mentioned i have already done.
in gpp intensive tempo…in special prep… split runs…in precomp 300’s with 15-20 mins recovery… now at the end of precomp this is where he is taking a small step back for how long i dont know.
Let me take a stab at QUIKAZHELL’s new 10min recovery workout, and Lactate Tolerance work in general.
Something to consider in workouts where the reps get slower, like a 43sec 300 rep, is that bad form is being ingrained as a motor pattern. I’m sure an athlete capable of 35s who runs 43s for 300 is getting very ragged on that rep.
Lactate tolerance before speed endurance doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. The general idea of lactate tolerance, other than getting used to high lactate, is that you can hold a certain speed for longer periods of time, with less recovery. If you’re not developing the speed first through long recovery intervals, then what kind of speed are you teaching yourself to hold?..a slower speed than you would otherwise be capable of.
I’ve read in many places that lactate tolerance is one of the quickest components to develop as well as one of the most stressful. Why not maximize the speed of the 300 reps with 20 min recoveries during the SPP, and then in a short precomp phase maximize your tolerance of that speed with shorter recovery lactate tolerance work.
Incidentally, lactate tolerance work with 300m reps seems like an 800m runner’s workout.
You into pre comp now hey, then the session i was talking about would only be good for off seasion, you are best now trying hard at going for the super fast 300’s with max recovery, being a 400 runner, super fast 500’s are also required, maybe to get used to them, do as charlie says, a fast 300 then 60sec rec. then a 200. If you only do 300’s at training, how are you going to stop someone passing you in the final 50m?
First: You are already developing lactic tolerance in SE work. You’re also right that you must have work on both sides of the 400m either through split runs or single runs (like a 500 or 600). SE sessions often occur for the 400m wed- with 300s and Sat with 500 oor 600s.
In the pre comp period the no of SE runs per session usually drops to one.
i fully agree. without doubt. At the same time, i have seen a very good runner improve out of sight during the off seasion by adding the shorter recovery sessions at 90%. But i still recon that at 90% it is just a extensive tempo session. and should be treated as such. And that is what that runner did, 90% intensive tempo, it may have even been 80% at times, but every other day, was speed endurance, flat out. A hard session, but then he was a 400m / 800m runner?
Yes, because it might even depend on the type of sprinter as Charlie said in the thead I mentioned above. So the program could look different for a 400m sprinter who’s strenght is speed…or am I wrong?
If i try to understand here, a runner with a strength in speed v’s a runner with a strength in endurance, would their programs be different? I guess that is what you are asking, yar?
Someone with a heap of speed, well they have to learn how to stay running during the last 100m or so in a race. Look at MJ. It looks like the man gets faster in the last 100m at pulls right away from everybody, right? But if you get his splits, its actually His slowest 100m split. He just slows less than the rest. As Seb Coe the great 800m 1500m runner says, " He who buffers the best, will beat the rest". And he could still run a 46sec 400m. If MJ could not “buffer” lactate acid, he would not pull away from his competition and more than likley get beaten. As we know, a 19.32 or whatever his time for the 200m, you still have to be darn fast. So where does that leave either a fast or endurance type 400m runner? Only one way to me. Get fitter through better lactate tolorance, get faster through better speed work, dont neglecte one principle over the other, work them together as a team and train hard. You could always pussy foot around and try to find a “easier” way to do it. But if it was “easy”, do you really think MJ would have won by such huge margins and over such a long time? Get fit and darn fast. An 800m runner will only train to get darn fit and in the terms of things, slightly fast. Some training will apear to be similiar, it has to, otherwise how are you going to get fit?? By wishing it? If wishing works, could someone let me know how to do it too!!!
If there is only two athleties training for the 400, Darn right i would, Do you know how hard and borring it would be having two programs for two guys. Let them work together, push each other, if one is faster than the other, use a handicapt system, let one start say 5m ahead. Even if you have more than 2 runners, all different abilities, start mr slow poke at 50m and mr speedy at 0m. They all need to be trained using pretty much the same principles. Train them all together, just adjust slightly for the slow, otherwise if mr slow gets beaten all the time, he may not continue training?? Mr speed still needs to get faster and mr fitness still needs to get fitter. and vice versa. eg
mon, Tempo 200’s * 8
tue, Speed 280’s * 3 full recovery
wed. Tempo 300’s * 6
thurs. Speed 60’s * till form slackens
Fri. Extensive Tempo 2*(200’s * 3)
Sat. Speed 300m 60sec rest 200m * 3 full recovery
sun, off
Both Usain Bolt and Ottis Harris to do same!!
If all the athlete’s do exactly the same thing and always together, get ready to take “Mr Slow” to the hospital after he pulls every muscle in his body. Even if the athletes are doing the same workout, they should run speed and SE separately.
Hence the reason for sending Mr slow off at a handicape. Stops him running as fast as Mr fast. Gives mr slow a chance to stay in front and give s the mr fast a rabbit as such to chase. I have seen many atletes run this way, my old trainier used to be a Professional runner, ( one that runs off a handicape ) and no athlete ever pulled a muscle, none. And we even had 12yr olds and 20yr old in the same effort. Also makes good fun.
Ok, let’s say you’re trainer in the 80’s. You train Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis, you make them do the same program.
I doubt one of them would have ever gone sub 10 or reched somewhere at all…
How is that possible? If they both follow the same program? Lets have a look! Carl, being also a good 200m runner, would tend to be faster than ben over say 300m, right? Lets say for arguments sake, 20m faster. If we get ben to run a 280m and carl a 300m say, carl should catch ben somewhere near the end, maybe? Both running within there own capabilities. Lets also say after 2 reps Ben cant recover but Carl is still allright. Then simply send carl off by himself. Ben just does the two. This is just an example. Same program, different end results. They both did their hardest, but carl is more suited to speed endurance than say ben. Same with working on speed. Ben being a better starter than carl he may end up doing 2 or 3 more reps than carl cause carl fatigued first. Same program, different end results. Each one has there own strength and weakness. So why on earth would you, if all you had was say ben and carl, give them two different programs?? How would they push each other? I would like to know! At least here they are working together, pushing each other, supporting each other and feeding of each other. Can still be the same program, but each athlete gets a slightly different training result due to different strength and weaknesses. Thats what i see from your question. plus, if its just carl and ben, and they get good enough, it would be time for them to pack up and move to a larger more equipt track club, one where they can fine tune there performances, not where its just the two of them.
OK., that means you have our fictional Ben do 2x280m, our fictional Carl do 3-4x300m, our fictional Ben do 8x30m accel., our Carl do only 6x30m.
That means you train them according to their individual strenghts.
Maybe I was only too vage in my usage of the term different programms, but that’s (in an abstract example) what I was talking about. No problem.