Fat loss, Sprinter v's Marathoner

General Fitness
1

ok, here it is
i was at a “presentation” today, just for 60min. And in it, the presenter asks the following

1 - who has lower body fat %? a sprinter or a marathoner

He says sprinter, as he has higher body mass, and around the same kgs in Fat so therefore less % in body fat.

So therefore, then, train like a sprinter and not a marathoner if you want to loose fat and not just bodyweight.

however - i get home, and look up for how lean Marathon runners “elite” level are.

So, according to “better training for Distance Runners”

                                    Men               Women

Essential body fat - 2-3 % 2-3%
fat in Trained distance runners 5-8% 10-14%
Fat in active healthy adults 12-20% 16-25%
Clinical obesity >25 >30

So - my Q. now is, any data on elite level sprinters?

Also - the presenter seemed to be of the belief that a marathon runner only does 2hr long runs… This is far from the truth. 1x wk they do a long run, the rest is either interval work or recovery runs, warm up/down runs and circuit/stage work.

My only guess is, they compared the Average Joe marathon runner to an elite level sprinter… Go figure.

So - what he was trying to say is, to loose weight, forget about the long 2hr runs, just do intervals… Very blanket… He seemed to of the concern that 2hr runs are useless, and intervals are the only way to go to loose body fat (mind you im not talking sprinters or power guys here, just the average Joe wanting to get fit n loose fat). However, its been shown that the long 2hrs runs/rides or whatever done at a steady pace teach the body to burn FAT as a fuel source, as carbs only last a short time, so to keep going, you NEED to learn to burn Fat. Naturally, the secret is how often do you need to do this, ahrr the secret… This seems to elude guys like this, yet they seem to be everywhere.

Take note - im not talking about the guy who is “overweight” for his next race at a 12% fat. But for the more larger client, say over 20- 30% fat, looking to loose weight to look good, feel better and enjoy life more.

To clarify perhaps more - basically he was saying 2hr runs done all the time wont do you any good. So therefore don’t do them.

Perhaps its like saying - 1 glass of red wine is good for your blood, so lets test that theory by drinking 2 bottles of red each day, only to find you get more problems than you care to imagine, so therefore, Never drink red wine…

Or them study’s on aspartimine - over dose them rats on amounts you could never drink in a year but give it to the rats in one dose every day - ohhh looks, the rats having trouble… Therefore never drink aspartimine

Thats my rant for the day

2

I would think that diet plays too much of a role in determining "average’ bodyfat. To be honest comparing the two elite groups, I would imagine both have similarly low bodyfats. Now take the “average” sprinter vs marathoner. From my observation, there is a much wider array of bodyfat levels in the marathoner. Though an ass clown can run a marathoner so the pool is much larger and much more diverse. The average joe isnt going to start training for a 200m race at the age of 35 due to various limitations, but could more easily make it through marathon training.

As for which is better for fat loss…distance running at a leisurely pace will burn more %fat but less overall calories. Sprinting(and recovering) will burn more calories overall and will have the added benefit of muscle mass. So really both will get the job done in the average joe athlete. The distance runner just might need to increase time/distance since there is a fairly quick adaptaion to aerobic training. But in the end…diet matters most.

3

The internet is full of people who will charge you $100 for interval/high intensensity training materials. They have a vested interest in complicating the training required for fat loss.

Endurance running is simple and cheap - run for 40 mins a day, do 1 session of intervals and one long run - hey presto you lose weight. Did`nt cost $100 did did it.

Join a running club for a year for $30 and get free training, buy a running magazine for $5 - I could go on.

4

Mind you - i have a few Laddies who want to run - just run, but cannnot during the Safe Daylight hrs as they are at work for many hrs. Hence they come to the gym and get bored Silly on the treadmills. But i still make sure they push out 20min or so on it or a x-trainer a few times per wk, and for intervals we do either circuit based dumbbell / barbell / med ball work, sometimes with shuttle runs if there is room. They have a great time.

Remember that $100 - is what people try to charge Per Hr…

All of my clients, i try to get them to Eat better - try, well, you can lead a camel to water… Most do - and they all do very well. Sometimes i just sit down with them and talk food instead of exercise.

Others just dont get it… you can tell them and explain it fully, partly etc about food, they sit there seemingly understanding what you say - however, they get home and its all just too hard… Then they get upset they dont get the results they want… I’m thinking of perhaps having a Contract set up - Eat right (or make a good attempt at eating better) or I’m not training you…

Oldbloke - the other thing is - people lack a complete self discipline to train by themselfs, they feel the need to be accountable to somebody. They just want to turn up, and have somebody else plan and organise training for them. The old story, “give a man a fish, and feed him for a day, teach him to fish and feed him for a lifetime” has now largly been replaced with, “Give a man a fish, cut up into small bite sized pieces served on a silver platter” Hence why personal training is becoming so popular. The $100 per hr price tag mind you is somewhat of a $$ grabing scheme… But hey - that what you get when the training is dished up on a silver platter - you turn up, i tell you what to eat, how to move and do it in a fancy techno gym…

You could argue that its a load of crap - or join in and start serving bite sized pieces of fish and make a living out of it. Like you said, paying somebody to stand there whilst you run 40min at 7k hr might be crazy - hence why intervals and items like it are made to look superior… Tis why i get my clients to “warm up” before our training with 20-30min of steady state work before sessions with me, or as part of their off days away from me. If they are told to do it, they generally do it, its basic and straightforward. Then with me, i make sure they get their $$ worth, plus its more fun.

I feel like im ranting again…

Basically, i get clients to do all three
1 - eat right
2 - long slow efforts - working in the proper heart rate zone for them
3 - intervals - using circuit based efforts of weights, shuttle runs etc

When i hear of trainers saying Long slow dont burn Fat very well, its obvious they dont understand the basics of “krebs cycle”

5

Bold,
I have no problem with personal trainers. What gets me are the internet scams (?) that sell you the how to get lean and great abs DVDs. And decry any other from of training especially endurance training.

Personal trainers are ok - I see many in the gym and they also contribute good motivation benefits to their clients.
Proper sports training programs (CFTS) are also ok.

I just cant stomach the get lean with a 7 minute high inensity workout` guys.

6

As a personal trainer, a strength coach (sort of the same I guess), and a recreational master’s sprinter, I must say that for fat loss I am partial to intervals and sprint-style training over LSD (long-slow distance training).

However, LSD training certainly has it’s place for the average joe and is the only real choice you have initially when dealing with a high-risk (from a cardiovascular health standpoint) client. Over time though, mild intervals can be done with these clients. It seems the real benefit of interval/sprint style training is the challenge and intensity of the intervals which can be much more mentally stimulating than staying within your “target heart rate zone” for hours on end. Most people seem to eventually get bored on a progam like that; espcially if performed on treadmills and stationary cardio equipment.

For my non-athletic clients, I like to give them a little of everything with Weights/strength-training and anaerobic intervals as their primary tools for fat loss. Then, I also give them a couple of LSD sessions as well; but these are used more for recovery from the higher intensity training with the side-benefit of burning some extra fat from peripheral fat stores.

In the final analysis, one must burn off more than one consumes to get leaner. It’s just a lot cooler (IMO) to also build muscle and valuable physical attributes (speed, power, explosive-strength, dynamic flexibility, etc…) as can be achieved with training such as sprinting. Elite distance athletes don’t have nearly as impressive physiques as elite sprinters; but of course I’m baised!

7

Yes - this is key - a bit of everything and not a slave to one means. I guess in my ramblings this is what i too aim for… (non athlete types)
its just there are those in my gym (trainers) who slave only by one means and kill off the others.

I was down to 5.7% FAT at least when training for mid distance with no diet - Long slow distance and with interval training as well. If i did weights too, i would have been slower but would have looked heaps better… Then add in diet…

8

why do you say that? :confused:

9

mid distance runners, at a certain level need to not only be lean, but pretty darn small. i typically ran best around 63kg
Heavier than 66kg and it was noticeable
Since i been over 70kg - forget it.

10

How tall are you?

11

a flys fart under 6foot - with a very small bone structure and really long legs - sitting upright, my fingers only just pass my knees (most people get at least half way)

Also i should note - relating to my ranting somewhere above - these “trainers” typicify interval training as in - Flat out for 10sec then 2min off walking slowly and repeat. Not the Tempo we know on Cf.com which is largely aerobic based.

12

That’s very light for somebody so tall!
You must have been very lean/skinny.
What were your pb’s at the time?

13

My friends called me a White kenyan… just paint me black… Crazy

400 - 49.5
600 - 1min 18
800 - 1.52
1500 - 4.04, grass, never really raced
8k - 24min 41sec
10k - 31min something? maybe 31min 50ish?

i wish i knew what i know now back then - as i was self trained for them times.
Had no idea about therapy, ems, taper, speed, high days then low days… and the list goes on.

14

My opinion is that because you burn 60-80% of all your calories from your BMR and only 10-15% from what you do (exercise, walk, move, including long distance/fat burn pace). then the goal should be to do what it takes to raise your BMR. I have been taught that it is the higher percentages of effort/HR that help in increasing BMR. thus, training with intervals, should help you have a better body comp. vs. slow, steady long distance.

15

Mind you - 3-4 months ago towards the end of my last block of cycling training, i would perform 1 x long bike ride per wk. of around 2-3hrs in duration. At just over 2hrs, im burning around 1000calories, but to last that long, i needed to keep in my Heart rate zone of max 75% of max Hr. Otherwise i would burn out, let alone keep going for another 1hr. So, a 100k bike ride (certainly not unheard of in cycling) burns upwards of 1500 calories. At a Hr average of 144 with my Max Hr of 183
Interval based work typically burns around 500calories for say a tempo session of 200m on , jog for 2min for 10 reps. Sure the tempo will burn more in a shorter time, and even continue to burn afterwards, but nowhere near the same as 1500.
To burn fat, you need O2 in the burn process.
Tempo will be in the burn process if done correctly, but at around 500 calories or so. Burn more if you do a Med ball workout - again a low Hr and as cf says, it can contiue on for an Hr (you cant do a med ball workout for an HR duration if your body is not efficient at burning FAT - otherwise you’ll be stuffed at around 20min) -

There is a certain ratio you want to keep in, typically around 80% of your workload should be low intensity and 20% high for excellent fat burning.
Pretty easy with some of the cf stuff. Tempo - easy med ball work outs. Esp if you jog recovery’s, time wise tempo is 80% easy as, jogging slow for 100m time wise is perhaps same as 300m tempo? maybe 400m?

typicaly sprinters were never FAT or OBESE to start off with, or come from that area. I would never get a Sprinter or Power related person to LSD.
Vary the tempo sessions, easy med ball workouts with shuttle runs and work on diet to optimize fat burning.

here is an exert from an article - [i]
UC Berkeley colleagues found that muscle cells use carbohydrates anaerobically for energy, producing lactate as a byproduct, but then burn the lactate with oxygen to create far more energy. The first process, called the glycolytic pathway, dominates during normal exertion, and the lactate seeps out of the muscle cells into the blood to be used elsewhere. During intense exercise, however, the second ramps up to oxidatively remove the rapidly accumulating lactate and create more energy.

Training helps people get rid of the lactic acid before it can build to the point where it causes muscle fatigue, and at the cellular level, Brooks said, training means growing the mitochondria in muscle cells. The mitochondria - often called the powerhouse of the cell - is where lactate is burned for energy.[/i]

And this

Of course, the role they play as cellular furnaces, converting nutrients and oxygen into energy, is immensely important. Every cell needs ATP—the chemical fuel generated by mitochondria—and some cells are particularly demanding: a muscle cell that pushes the leg into a sprint, a beta cell in the pancreas that synthesizes the hormone insulin, a brain cell that fires a signal to help create a thought. Each of these kinds of cells contains as many as 10,000 mitochondria, and it’s no secret that those tiny organelles keep the home fires burning.
In most tissues, mitochondria consume 90 percent of the oxygen that enters the body. So it makes sense that mitochondria would function as oxygen sensors as well.

Which leads us to ask - Energy conversion
A dominant role for the mitochondria is the production of ATP, as reflected by the large number of proteins in the inner membrane for this task. This is done by oxidizing the major products of glucose, pyruvate, and NADH, which are produced in the cytosol.[6] This process of cellular respiration, also known as aerobic respiration, is dependent on the presence of oxygen. When oxygen is limited, the glycolytic products will be metabolized by anaerobic respiration, a process that is independent of the mitochondria.[6] The production of ATP from glucose has an approximately 13-fold higher yield during aerobic respiration compared to anaerobic respiration.[18]

So - increase a muscles size via resistance work, so it can hold more mitochondrion in its cells by means of O2 demanding exercises.