Auxometronics (AMT)

"And now we have the firebird posting noise about how single minded I am yet he must realize that I have been paid to help those destroyed by some of DB hammer’s methods by members of this forum. I had to revamp their entire body, from joints to endocrine system, all because people were starting out doing more plyos in one day than most jumpers do in a week. "

Clemson,
What type of issues have you had with your athletes and DBs methods?? I have been using a small portion of his system with very good results. I have yet to attempt AMT and probbaly wont do so being as I dont have the proper setup or training partners. Right now I use mostly altitude jumps and reactive squats in my program. I think the greatest benefit of his system is an individualized layout of volume regulation. I have yet to have a workout where I havent made gains. Having been on this forum for a while now, I value your opinion and am wondering where you find fault in his system. Or do you think that it was the poor application of his system that led to issues with those athletes?

Clemson I dont think that you destroyed Lyles arguments at all… All he said was that in general swimmers are fatter and that some extra weight is not as detrimental to swimming… Which is true…

[b]YOUR 10.08 sprinter! you probably wanna rephrase that!

Brokenburr?
How many hours/days/weeks/months did you work with him and what improvement did he show in this time?[/b]

Elars21- again I had his career under my direction for a period of one year. He came to me past his prime, and he went faster under my program then the year before. The amount of fundraising I did to fly to NC every month was not easy, hence why many athletes fall through the cracks. I used two strength coaches, and have all of this on video. In fact I have a 60m run of him going 6.49 in practice at NC state.

Remember I have a team approach to my training and employ therapists, coaches, and other specialists so the evidence is easy on my half. Since you seem to needing some rep points perhaps you can share what you are doing with your athletes in case studies with names and results.

for those that don’t remember the Lyle visit, here is the arguements

Quote:

                                                     "I suspect that bodyfat %age is being affected by the gravity component: a runner needs as little dead weight as possible (tho SuperCoach Clemson might ask why they don’t all achieve minimal bodyfat %ages of 3% or so, he might apply the same question to sprinters before he spouts off about math and power/weight ratios) since they are carrying their entire body across the ground. A cyclist, unless they are a climbing specialist, isn’t as slowed by dead fat weight because of the weight support of the bike. For swimming, not only is bodyfat not a gravity related hindrance, excessive leanness harms performance because the athlete sinks, meaning more energy has to go into keeping him/her afloat."                                           

say that again?

Quote:

                                                     For swimming, not only is bodyfat not a gravity related hindrance, excessive leanness harms performance because the athlete sinks, meaning more energy has to go into keeping him/her afloat.                                          

What an joke! Wayne Goldsmith, you know a thing about what is going on in swimming being appointed the lead in sport science with the Austrialians…what is your take on the subject?

"Although increased body fat is likely to enhance buoyancy, the increase in body drag will offset any advantage resulting from improved buoyancy. "

I don’t want to bore a sprint/power forum about FORM DRAG, but humans don’t swim faster because they are larger. Thin wins…

Quote:

                                                     Some other differences between sports would be that compared to running or cycling, at a given VO2, heart rate in swimming is lower (as a function of being in cold water). Does this affect training adaptations (i.e. central vs. peripheral)? I have no idea but there’s a clear difference between sports. Cold also affects fuel utilization, with more carbohydrate and less fat being used. Meaning swimming is probably relying more on carbohydrate for fuel than running or cycling (if there are major fuel use differences between running and cycling, I’m unaware of them). This probably has an impact on a lot of different things.                                           

What about being PRONE? Any coach involved with endurance sports will know a thing about resting heart rates and body position…add in the fact that gravity is real in swimming (blood flow also has less trouble here) but it seems people love to talk but when the curtain is pulled some are just hat and no cattle.

One simple question, Clemson: why is (as I recall) the average elite swimmer typically 10-12% bodyfat compared to 5% for runners and about 8% for cyclists?

Watching the last Olympics, swimmers did not look (to these aging eyes) as lean as many other athletes. Perhaps there is a reason for this.

Or is this jus a reading comprehension issue again, you can’t understand the difference between the words ‘fatter’ (relatively speaking, a swimmer will typically be fatter than an elite endurance runner or cyclist) and ‘fat’ (a swimmer is by no means fat).

On which note, you might want to look back at my original comments. NOWHERE did I suggest that athletes should not be lean. I did comment that relying on fairly innacurate bodyfat mesaurement estimations is a mistake, that leaner isn’t automtically better, and my only comments wrt: swimming had to do with the relative fatness of swimmers. I think what you need is less time online and a basic reading comprehension course.

You might also note that, in my original post, which you quoted, I was careful to use words like suspect and might, suggesting possibility (not certainty). I realize that you like to talk in absolutes and perhaps you convince someone (mainly yourself) with such exhortations but I do not. Neither do real scientists.

Have a lovely day,
Lyle

note, quoting from Wilmore and Costills “Physiology of sports and exercise” about body composition in sports. (2nd ed, pg 501)

“Performance in swimming also seems to be an exception to the general rule. In one study, the relationship between body fatness and swimming performance was determined in 28 competitive female swimmers, ages 12 to 17 years. Examining the best times in their best events and in the 100yd (91m) freestyle revealed that swim performance was unrelated to relative bodyfat and only sightly related to fat-free mass. Body fat may provide some buoyancy, which can reduce body drag in the water and reduce the metabolic cost of staying on the surface of the water.”

Incidentally: I didn’t leave because you ‘destroyed’ me with truth and science. You wouldn’t know good sports science if it bit you on the ass, as evidened by your clear lack of even some rather basic knowledge (like the FACT that swimmers are typically fatter, NOT FAT, than many other elite endurance athletes). I left b/c I wasn’t learning anything and having to deal with a pompous dogmatic idiot like yourself, with clear reading comprehension issues was not worth my time.

When you find some of that science and truth you claim to have, let me know. And I predict that, as usual, you will now ask me what elite ahletes I have trained. this is your only response when you’re losing an argument. Another reason you are not worth my time.

Clemson just curious as to what problems you saw with DB’s methods? I am not for them or against them, I have his book and sludged through all the crazy jargon but I think I got some good ideas, I think the reactive squats and stuff made me run faster???(not sprints but medium distances) I really have not implemented it enough to really say if it worked well for me or not…just curious about what your dudes had problems with!
On a side note I think DB is rick brunner, I say that casue I have his book Soviet Training and recover methods and in the book Brunner says he was a thrower, so does db.Also Brunner used to work with jay schroeder bout 5-6 years back on evo-sport, brunner sold supplements jay did the training, when I emailed schroder last year and asked him if he was DB, he mailed me back saying that he was not but they had simlar ideas (like he would really tell me anyways I don;t even know him :cool: ) Anyways just my food for thought like anyone cares :smiley: I should be a detective!!! I need a life! :rolleyes:

I don’t need shit.

Originally posted by Phoenix
don’t fucting swim (censor proof) it will be like neo trapped in a pod loosing muscle and gravity.

You are Phoenix on Elitetrack right? Both pop off with stuff like this or DB’s program ruining an athletes endocrine system that makes no damn sense and both act like they’re evil geniuses of track and field. I don’t want to have beef with you, but you think you’re some super coach when you’re really not. It’s pretty lame. You want to put yourself above other board members, but I judge by the merit of ideas not who they say they have worked with . (That’s an idea, huh). I REALLY REALLY resent your boast. You expect your statements to be accepted as fact- newsflash many people here (not just Charlie) know just as much if not more than you.

I have trained no elite swimmers or sprinters (which from reading other posts is what clemson desires in an argument) so I will post some pictures of athletes that arent mine…

Best swimmer in the world over 1500

Olympic and world champion butterflier

Lean swimmer and greatest sprint swimmer ever

Relay team

Greatest Swimmer ever

Compare that with…

this really has nothing directly to do with this post but how can anyone take this guy seriously. someone on his forum asked how to lose upper body LBM and lyle’s recommendation was to stop lifting upper body completely and do more cardio. great answer, please stay away from this board. if anyone cares, its under general questions and the thread is reducing upper body lbm…i refuse to post a link to this guys site. what a joke.

“Performance in swimming also seems to be an exception to the general rule. In one study, the relationship between body fatness and swimming performance was determined in 28 competitive female swimmers, ages 12 to 17 years. Examining the best times in their best events and in the 100yd (91m) freestyle revealed that swim performance was unrelated to relative bodyfat and only sightly related to fat-free mass. Body fat may provide some buoyancy, which can reduce body drag in the water and reduce the metabolic cost of staying on the surface of the water.”

Does anyone have a problem with Lyle’s research here? Compeditive female swimmers that are 12-17 in the Indiana area are most likely not elite subjects, and that is the problem with not being involved in the sport. He is telling me to note page 501 of a physiology book, yet history books such as the Athens World Championships are what I am interested in. Then as coaches we must realize what can be used for athletes that are not elite in terms of age (older) and talent (genetics). Clearly the subjects were USS club swimmers and they used 100yard performances instead of meters…a clear indication of them not being world class. To track coaches this is like someone posting research on 300m hurdlers in Middle school explaining that all elite hurdlers were 5’ 6 or lower!

Sure in the past youth dominated swimming and when you went to college it was all down hill. As of present the ages are getting older because nutrition, money, and culture make things better to athletes.

Kruger- Look at Inge, the fastest and leanest. Now being lean is not the only variable but look at Alex Popov? Take a guy with the same circumferences and the one that is more muscle will win. Why not try to help athletes get stronger with the same size? I realize that Thorpe and Grant Hacket are not very lean, but with body suits and new methods in coaching we are still years away from limits. I am looking at more top speed of swimmers since the scholastic events in college make sprinters more valuable for scholarships. Look at the 4x100 relay from Athens and look at the lean swimmers from South Africa. (they trained at the U of Arizona) and Austraila failed to medal.

The other problem I have with this study is that everyone talks about buoyancy when any coach will point out that 15 meters of the 50 meters pool is the limit to UNDERWATER swimming. This means that swimmers were going underwater too far years ago and so they limited them to 15 meters. Add in the states we have 25 yard pools and now 60% of the race can be underwater. Richard Quick calls underwater DK the fifth stroke for good reason.

Last but not least asd123 many forum members have tried to use DB or Evosport and had joint problems in the back, knee, and ankle. Most of the problems seem to be not looking at the athletes training, and realizing that they were compensating.I am still waiting to see an ESPN article of a baseball or football player going to Germany. I will u2u a member and see if he wants to share.

Clemson, Compare Inge to merlene ottey…

Who is leaner…

Please be honest…

Would inges bodyfat be as low as any of the top 20 female track sprinters in the world? Probably not…

I posted the pick of Popov… Telling me to look at him is kinda redundant…

Thorpe is the greatest swimmer of the last 5 years… hes just not some swimmer…

Also saying that swimming isnt near the limits is stupid and contradictory for atleast 2 reasons…

  1. Swimmers today are not as lean as the runners in early 1900s
  2. it totally contradicts your point about looking at great athletes and case studies, looking at history rather than theory… it delves into the world of hypotheticals which you criticize lyle for so much… if you want to make that point rather than looking at the real, what does actually exist, then you MUST stop asking lyle who hes coached and criticizing him for his theories…

As for DB… Dan Fichter and Bill Hartman seem to be DB… They are real and coach real people…

Kruger,

I am comparing Swimmers to swimmers…not track to swimming! Post or quote that I am saying that swimmers are leaner than sprinters/runners. Lyle is arguing about levels of body fat with swimmers within the sport-

I just think it is good to have swimmers lean and not have excess cross section. And from the trend as of now…it is working!

Inge might not be leaner than any of the top 20 sprinters in track, but she is faster and leaner than all of the swimmers in the 50m! See that is my point. In fact, many swim coaches use information from track to get better strength training.

am i missing something? is the muscle mass of the sprinters confusing you? the pics of the swimmers you put up are very lean (6-9% bf) compared to that of the sprinters (4-5%).

ccardill,

My point is that swimmers bodyfat percentage doesn’t have to be as high as the average. It is accepted to be ok to not be as lean as a ground base athlete but getting into the “fat floats” state of mind doesn’t sound like a good path in my book. You must look for ways to improve performance, no matter how subtle.

Proof being?

or are you pulling figures straight out of your ass?

Do you know Joe Cole Aaron F? He was a sprinter in the same town as you! Small world.

Speaking of Joe does anyone remember him or what he is up to now?

even in the hypothetical example you gave the runners are leaner… or am i missing something and 4-5 is actually smaller than 6-9???

Lyle never said swimmers need to be obese… I think the numbers he quoted were 8-10%!

EDIT: Did you see the pick of hacket?
If I look hard enough I can probably show you pics of Thorpe looking pretty damn fat…

This is a guy that has stated…

“I’ve swum well at 105 kilos and I’ve swum well at 90 – and that’s a big range.”

He is also the best swimmer in the world between 1999 and 2003… How well do you think that maurice green or ato boldon or tim montgomery or ben johnson would have run with an extra 32pounds of body weight(a very good deal of that being fat)???

He has also attacked swimming coaches for trying to make swimmers lean…

i’m looking at the pics he posted.

I know Joe

I havent talked to him for a few months, as I left that town and am currently about 1000km away from it. I just havent updated anything.