Dude,
all I said was that Db’s method is not proven to be better than any other method, nor are the OL’s proven any better. all i was stating was that in DB’s articles he says his way is better, when in truth no way is better,Its just what we choose as coaches to use to use in training. When did I ever say depth jumps were not valuable, i cant find that in any of my posts? Semantics!! Dude depth jumps will NOT make you a better olympic lifter. I enjoy the OL’s find it enjoyable to teach them and can save a lot of time developing multiple strength quality with them.
Tell me one strength quality you cant develop using the OL’s lifts and its variations?
F=ma, regular depth jumps occur with a acceleration of 9.81 meters per second. the bands increase downward acceleration, therefore force doring absorption phase is greater, ie different but not alltogether better training affect. it depends on your goal in training, both regular depth jumps and modified ones are valid.
For sports like soccer, basketball, football, and baseball- starting strenght is vital for that first step. Olympic lifts and variations of that help with getting athletes of all levels to improve their generating capacities.
When will people realize that Santa Claus is just a myth? I thought DB’s fallout came during his 6 second max speed lectures? He is just a internet scam.
6 second max speed lecture!! That’s funny!!!
The training effect of Oly’s and depth jumps with bands are completely different. Oly’s develope strength- speed so the athlete can move heavy loads quickly. This translates very well to speed-strength through increased starting strength, rate of force developement, and so forth, but the specificity is not absolute.
As many people have pointed out, using bands with depth jumps will increase the acceleration of the drop creating increased force upon contact. The myotatic reaction will be greatly stimulated. A true plyomatric action will include a coupling phase of .15 sec. or less. A coupling phase longer than .15 second will tapper the myotatic reflex of the muscles. Oly’s are explosive in nature, but not truly plyometric. Bands allow a stroinger stimulation of the series elastic component of the muscles and as the bands are released, this allows for a quicker coupling phase.
When DB says that they are better than Oly’s you must realise what he is comparing. When training speed-strength, AMT’s would be a better functional exercise. When training strength-speed, Oly’s would be better.
Now, to say that DB’s methods are an internet scam is just ignorance. It is single minded comments such as these that will prevent athletes from reaching their full potential. No single method encompases every aspect of athletic developement. Oly’s, PL’s, plyo’s, westside methods, GPP, SPP, and so forth should be utilized with precise timing throughout the macrocycle to achieve the optimal training effect.
If you know so much Clemson, then you should know that starting strength is not correlated with explosive strength (the first step). Starting strength benifits max or near max loads. The action component that you are looking for would be acceleration strength and rate of force developement. Before discounting DB’s methods completely, why don’t you join his forum and learn about the methods before you judge. I know it’s scary to open your mind to new techniques, but your potential is limited by your acceptance of new knowledge. In the thread about training books there are many excellent resources of information. DB’s methods are derived from those very texts that are mentioned on that thread.
Your way off on alot of things related to the OL’s. I have to go to work so i will comment later tonight. One thing is for sure Clemson is not ignorant to new training or ideas. I have seen his training first hand and if you read his posts he is extremly knowledgable on many subjects. Go so his web site and see. There are over 100 articles. On top of that he does not hide in the woodwork like DB.
Hello friends,
I’m hesitant to reply to this because its not going to change anyone’s mind who is already made up (which I’m not really interested in doing anyway). And it will probably just fan the fire, bring out more easter bunny comments, etc
It is just a kind of modified plyos. Its not a holy grail although I realize its proposed as one in the article. But when someone is missing certain motor qualities and is at a certain level, I think it could be a great way to improve an athlete’s reactive strength.
Same as a higher box? Verdicts still out. I’ve heard much more argument than has been presented here on both sides from those within DB’s own small little online community.
Summary:
You need 2 partners, a lifting belt, a correct box height, and 2 jumpstretch or other bands.
There are 2 video examples a bit down the page here:
http://www.inno-sport.net/Speed-Strength.htm
The bands are attached to your weight belt. Each partner, straps the other end of one band around his foot, you step off and as you hit the ground, they angle their feet so the band can come off and you’re not jumping into tension.
DB claimed amazing results with a properly progressed to cycle of AMT jumps. The people who have tested this aren’t going to be found on this site even if they read it. One or two of the minions are here as you can tell, but most of the rest of us will just stay in the woodwork because its not worth the time to argue.
xlr8 made a good point: There is a possibility that tension should be held somehow all the way to the bottom (vs. just the sling shot at the top) but the logistics of that are trickier and would involve tremendous forces.
It is just another training means to explore for those interested. Keep up the Olympic lifts or whatever else if you prefer.
I value everyone’s opinion here. And of course Clemson is a very smart guy (it does kind of sound like his mind is made up about this though). The Olympic lifts ARE good. And no one here has much practical experience with AMT work yet (and that applies even to those of us who follow his methods). So in my mind, it still warrants more testing.
Even within the DB community which you undoubtedly assume is filled with cult like zombies, there is a wide spectrum. A few clamoring for scientific studies to back up anecdotal claims. Many disbelievers in his identity who are nonetheless interested in the ideas. Some proposing more traditional conjugated loading ideas.
We are just a bunch of coaches and athletes who are trying to find a better way to achieve performance results. Some go pure DB, some integrate it with Westside or the Olympic lifts, and others are just there to explore.
-Erik
P.S. It’s funny how so many different training methodologies say they have evolved from the same studies and work, isn’t it? Back to my Soviet Fitness Reviews…
P.P.S. PM me if interested in getting access to the closed door DB discussion forum. We’re not letting a lot more people in but you don’t have to buy into it all to become a member. Just be willing to stay open minded, have some parts of the system you want to explore/discuss more, etc
Ok, this is it, and I’m done.
The general volume of loading in the experimental group was reduced by
reducing the number of squats; it consisted of 786 lifts (90 tons) and 310
depth-jumps. The chief difference between the training programs consisted of
the use of depthjumps. Depth-jumps were employed in the first 3 weeks, in the
following volume: the first 2 workouts 2 series of 10 jumps from a height of
0.5 m; the third workout 3 series of 10 jumps from a height of 0.5 m; the
fourth workout 4 series of 10 jumps from a height of 0.5 m; the subsequent
five workouts – 4 series of 10 jumps from a height of 0.7 m. So, depth-jumps
were utilized 3 times per week (9 times in all during the pre-competition
stage). The aforementioned program was designed on the basis of preliminary
research and practical experience in the use of depth-jumps by individual
weightlifters.
The results of the experiment revealed the following:
The athletes in the experimental group improved their results in the
final competition. Six, established personal records in the total.
Improvement in the snatch and the clean and jerk was an average of 6.7%.
Certain athletes improved their snatch by 10 kg (9.5% from the initial
level); by 12.5-15 kg in the clean and jerk (an average of 11%) and by
22.5-25 kg in the total (an average of 10.3%). The athletes results who
employed the traditional methodics were significantly lower and they did not
exceed personal records;
Clemson, I agree with both points. There is more than just starting strength though. For reactive strength and speed strength, OLY’s aren’t a cure all, but I know you know that.
frit17, why don’t you ask Clemson if he just used olympic lifts to train a triple jumper. Olympic lifts will work fine for a standing VJ, but it’s another story with a running one leg jump. If they train speed-strength so well, refer above.
You’ve got to be kidding or you’re extremely arrogant. Starting strength (first step) is the ability to generate force without the utilization of the myotatic stretch reflex and is vital to explosive strength. Is it explosive? Yes. Is it explosive-strength? Yes and No, the action is explosive but that is because of acceleration, not stretch-reflex and I think you clarified this at the end of you post when you discuss acceleration-strength and RFD, but acceleration-strength is a component of speed-strength and not a strength itself. This is the reason the bar moves from slow to fast on an olympic lift. And olympic lifts can be speed-strength or strength-speed (see Supertraining), depending upon the load utilized. The very idea of you coming onto this board and repeatedly attacking (yes, you are attacking people) members and methods is absolutely ridiculous when you consider your statement on being open-minded. You couldn’t even finish a post without actually attacking Clemson for what reason, because he has opposed you on a different thread? And you still haven’t posted no damn research on Frappier Acceleration that you said you would post on Monday. I really don’t mean to antagonize you or attack you and I encourage your posts but please, MAINTAIN LOW TONES. I hope we can continue discussions and that everyone can display open-mindedness. Check out Clemson’s site (www.regenerationlab.com) and you may gain some insight to what he actually represents. And you actually had a pretty good post going…
I may have oversimplified acceleration and speed-/strength-speed but if you’d like to actually discuss my views then PM me and I’d be glad to hear your views. But I am going to cease posting on this thread so as not to hijack it for personal agendas (ahem, cough, cough).
To everyone else, I’d love to know the results of people who have athletes who’ve reached some level of success utilizing DB’s methods (or Jay Schroeders?)
I haven’t followed the thread in depth so I won’t formulate an opinion on the merits of these exercises for very advanced athletes.
However, I did view the exercises through the link provided by elukas.
In my opinion, I’m going to assume these are athletes participating in the ino-sport training program and are not actors per se.
The young lady in the AMT jumps video should not performing that exercise at that height and/or with that band tension or better off not doing it all.
Valgus stress at both knees, particulary the right, amongst other red flags at the landing, would indicate to me this exercise is too advanced for her as it may also be for others.
Same with the young lady on the ADA lateral SS video.
There in lies the concern that a cowboy coach will incorparate these movements into a training program predisposing unqualified athletes to potential injuries.
Your thoughts.
Thomas
How’s the saying go Thomas, “Ain’t no cowboys here son, just men and horses.”
Alright. I think this could be an improvement on depth jumps, but the bands must not be released until the plyometric or eccentric phase is complete. There is just way too much room for human error. If some type of device could be rigged up…
Damn, i had a long post on how to build one of these things and i lost my connection. It could be done rather easily, even cheaply (depending on actuator cost). If anyone wants me to post the details, let me know.
BTW, what is with new members attacking clemson? Isn’t this like the fourth one?
Attacks on Clemson?
Many come on this forum to talk noise about how much they know about training and we have seen the following come and go.
Slivio Emanuel- The next great sprinter who explained that my 10.08 and 10.09 sprinters were just lame (he could not break 10.5) and how I sucked as a coach. He is gone.
Lyle (pronounced LIE-ILL) Mc Donald - Explaining that swimmers should be fat to swim faster. If fat floats, why be lean? His arguements were destroyed by me because I used the truth and science to back up my results. He has left as well.
And now we have the firebird posting noise about how single minded I am yet he must realize that I have been paid to help those destroyed by some of DB hammer’s methods by members of this forum. I had to revamp their entire body, from joints to endocrine system, all because people were starting out doing more plyos in one day than most jumpers do in a week.
My mind is open to new things, but outlandish claims and just plain foolishness is a major turn off. I am still waiting for a ESPN article with all of the americans training in the suburbs of Germany with DB. It’s so secret, the agents and athletes are not aware that they are training with him! Must be that flash thing from the Men in Black movie.
Dell Dell- I do use olympic lifts for a triple jumper. Not only is she the school record holder, she was the State Class champ last spring. We took the time to learn the lifts for her training because I feel that the world record holder John Edwards had some great training that could be used for other athletes. I don’t like my “bumber plate” saying used againts FRIT17 because he is doing the right things in training.
For those that find my results to be mysterious, please do the following
Go to www.ihigh.com and look under track and swimming for both guys and girls.
Look at the top lists in the sprint events and see if you can find a pattern.
Boys and Girls 300m (first seed, second seed)
Girls Long Jump (second seed)
Boys 50 and 100y freestyle (second, first)
Girls 100 free ( second)
Boys 100 yard breast (second)
YOUR 10.08 sprinter! you probably wanna rephrase that!
Brokenburr?
How many hours/days/weeks/months did you work with him and what improvement did he show in this time?
can we all agree that plyo’s are a tool that should be used more sparingly than others? I think the only time they should really be upped is to break through a plateu(i hate spelling) and other means seem to have stopped working(ie lifting, sprinting, so reduce lifting volume and up plyo a bit, or say you do sprinting for GPP, reduce sprinting volume and up plyo more specific to the movement a bit). And how come nobody here has mentioned med balls? I dont use them because I don’t have them, but dont they improve RFD, starting strength, muscle elasticity, etc…? I think sticking to more a more basic routine(sprinting, working on different types of strength with weights) is needed before even attempting advanced plyo’s like this, as well will yeild better results. Is Clemson plyo crazy? No. What about Defranco and Martin Rooney? No, and I am willing to bet all of their athletes are stronger and faster than DB’s!
Inno-sports is not about “plyos”. BTW I would take that bet… Don’t trash an entire system. it’s at the very least well umm innovative. Maybe if you looked at the articles instead of just the video section you would understand a bit more. If you just implement their exercises into your program than it’s your fault if you’re injured.
IHigh is a national site. What state? Was it you who brought them to the mountain top of high school swimming or do the best swimmers come to you?
Why do you assume I havent read the articles? I have, Ive read what he has to say, and in my opinion there are more foundational training to be put in before trying to add a very fast prestretch to every exercise. And I’d vouch for clemson, he has posted several times what his athletes did before he started training them(I think the swimmer was average at best) and how they performed after(I cant remember, but I believe it was a top 3 or top5 finish in the state?). So dont trash a coach simply because he actually trained athletes that performed well and didnt say “oh its confidential, but really this is what all the elite athletes in the world use, just trust me”
I didn’t trash him at all, so backdafuccup! I asked if you read any of the articles, because you don’t seem to comprehend the system. There is an entire article regarding foundational training. I try too see the good in all training systems as with people. I feel they have some very innovative ideas that I’m willing to implement.
What was said was incorrect, I just pointed it out to you, it’s not trashing, sorry you’re not Infallible. Inno-sports is not at all a high-volume plyo system. Maybe you have it confused with Air Alert 2? LOL
Just a note: It is actually a surprisingly low volume plyo system. Different from other systems in that they believe that plyos shouldn’t be preplanned for a set amount of time in season but used as needed if reactive ability continues to be a weakness.
There are no absolutes but its usually no more than 2-4 sets of 2-5 foot contacts per session. Maybe 2-3 of those sessions in a 3 week period. So as low as a 15-50 foot contacts in 3 weeks.
The only way an athlete will continue to do more plyo work in a session is if he is at a stage where he has a high work capacity and he/she can keep working without having his standard (say a measured vertical jump) fall off below the drop off (2 inches for instance). It would still would be a miracle if they got past 40 foot contacts in one session.
The system IS hard to implement on your own. Very hard. I’m still working out little bits and pieces and myself was guilty of trying to progress too fast.
If they don’t understand if they’re landing correctly or not, an athlete will keep increasing the height of altitude and depth jumps beyond his abilities.(Guilty)
It seems deceptively simple after studying it for months (and insanely hard at first). But staying objective while performing the workouts and not going past the point where your performance decreases the amount you determined you would halt the workout is always a temptation. There is also the temptation to simply imitate someone else who just got results when an athlete has different strengths and weaknesses.
I’m guessing the athletes that Clemson has worked with that were using innosport’s methods didn’t implement the system how they should have (which is a very easy error to make). Incorrect form, increasing the height of their altitude drops unreasonably, sneaking a little extra plyo/weights volume in thinking it will help, using the selection of advanced exercises before they’re ready.
When the dust is settled, the first time I took the time to really make sure I did a one month cycle of the system correctly, I added a very solid 2" onto my vertical jump. And it was not +2" onto an skinny 16 year old kid who was jumping 20", weighed 150, and obviously just needed to get stronger. It was +2" on guy who was already easily dunking from a standstill.
-Erik