He is the biggest proponent of making people substantiate their claims.
Not a deity, but a very upright man. If he wrote it, I would venture to say it is an accurate representation of the truth.
Lil Coach H
cscs
-How So? Please explain to me which parts are wrong and why?
[QUOTE=Supervenomsuperman]-Also, Why on earth would you want to slow the bar down on the concentric phase. It doesn’t matter when using the exercise for resistance or power, the “Motor Unit Recruitment pattern” as changed. Take an defensive lineman in football; for example, the lineman doesn’t want to train his body to have a reduced (If present at all) “Stretch Shortening Cycle”. The lineman wants to explode through his opponent and not get in a strength battle with his opponent. When using the elastic bands in your squat, you train your body’s neuromuscular coordination in a horrible way; furthermore, when you squat for strength (1RM,3RM,5RM) your legs get eccentrically loaded and they then get “unleash the elastic band in your legs (its a metaphor and you can pardon the pun just so there’s no confusion)” for the concentric phase. HOWEVER, if you use elastic bands, then on the concentric phase the bands slow down the SSCycle (if not fading completely) and towards the end of the lift your body is able to lift more weight doing a quarter squat than a full squat because that is the way it was designed by evolution; therefore, it is useless to recruit more muscle fibres if these fibres fire in an inefficient way. This is the main reason why these bands and chains and surgical tubing are retarded.
Wow, I’ve not heard a load of unsubstantiated rubbish like that since my days on the old weightsnet board. The stretch cycle occurs during the transition from eccentric to concentric or miometric to pliometric as DB would say…and what exactly is this “horrible way” that bands are responsible for producing? ALL my NFL and collegiate (even with my more advanced high school guys) athletes have seen dramatic differences between non-band and band usage (with their respective teams and then coming to me). I’ve yet to see some “horrible way” develop in either their exercise technique or overall athleticism. I’d be interested in seeing some sort of biomechanical analysis or study backing up your claims. The late Dr. Siff and I use to discuss this because I hadn’t seen previous studies done on it and he was a definite proponent of using them. My last personal interaction with him was at the NSCA convention in Vegas a few years ago just before he did the dual presentation with Louie Simmons. I"m sorry to say that much of what he could have taught the world about the numbers and data concerning Westside will never be shared.
From www.strengthcats.com
Jay Schroeder, strength coach with EVO SPORT in Mesa, Arizona focuses on plyometric bench press exercises of a comparable nature to increase the speed and strength of the athletes he trains. Schroeder uses a “contraption that looks like a bench-press machine beneath four poles. A heavy, rectangular, metal slab slides up and down the poles.” Athletes “lie on the bench and push the slab up, let it go, and catch it, repeatedly.” (Bruton, 2001)
This was one of the methods Schroeder used in training Adam Archuleta, safety with the Saint Louis Rams. Archuleta’s beginning bench press of 265 pounds was moved in 2.76 seconds for the concentric phase. After training the plyometric bench press, Archuleta’s concentric bench of 530 pounds is moved in 1.09 seconds. (Nawrocki, 2001). Schroder’s program revolves around absorbing and rapidly repelling force, i.e., plyometrics.
Plyometric bench press training with the Smith machine can somewhat duplicate the medicine ball drop and Schroder’s training method. Research by the previously mentioned Australian group utilized plyometric bench press throws using the Smith machine. The Smith machine bench press throws are performed by catapulting the bar as high as one can into the air. The lifter then catches the returning bar with an open palm and decelerates the bar to just above the chest. At that point, the lifter reverses the direction of the bar as quickly as possible and launches it into the air once again. Needless to say, this can be a potentially dangerous activity and should be performed with great care.
Schroeder also uses a free weight bench press for plyometric training. However, turning a free weight bar into a projectile poses numerous problems. It is suggested that one practice these activities with minimal resistance before attempting heavier weights.
In summary, research shows training the bench press with percentages of 55% of 1 RM is an effective method that should be used to develop power. However, “(this not only develops power in a very narrow range of motion, but also trains the muscle to “put on the brakes” for three quarters of the movement! Imagine the disastrous consequences of training a boxer to slow down a punch for the last 75% of the movement or a football lineman to explode only partly off the line of scrimmage.” (Flannagan, 2001). This same analogy can be applied to benching, squatting and deadlifiting. The objective is to ram the weight through the roof and through the sticking point. Therefore, training for power must also include plyometric exercises that maximize the stretch reflex. Exercises like the medicine ball drop, Smith machine bench press throws and free weight bench press throws fully exploit the stretch reflex. Combining low percentages in one’s bench training along with plyometric bench press movements will provide a greater stimulus than just one of these methods alone. The ultimate result will be an increase in your 1RM.
Pretty much, yeah.
Yeah. I love it when people with absolutely no experience with accomodating resisitance and no idea on how to use band/chain methodologies say it doesn’t work.
Are You Talking To Me?
You got it. Funny how Schroeder gets results with a select few of clients he works extensively with, using his secret protocols. Louie Simmons gets results with anyone who will take the time to review his stuff, and will chat all day if you call up Westside. Anyone who has used bands and chains can tell there is a definite positive training effect, without nearly the joint toll that Schroeder’s plyometrics will take. Since you are saying that accomodating resistance doesn’t work, I can only take it to mean you are in the uninformed, yet all-knowing minority who doesn’t need to experiment with new protocols to determine their effectiveness.
What’s Archuletta doing now? Not a damned thing. However, there are many, many collegiate and NFL players utilizing workouts based on the Westside template, getting stronger, and who will actually be playing this up-coming season.
As a native St. Louisian and Rams fan - Adam Archuletta is penciled in as our starting strong safety…
I am educated with the Westside Methods from the free information at deepsquatter.com and I have not decided whether they work or do not work! I like to know as much as I can before jumping off a cliff just because everybody else is doing it.
P.S. I would bring a parachute just in case the water was a bit more shallow than I had expected.
I never said accomodating resistance did not work. My curiousity lay in what exactly does it work?
From reading your posts and replies on this board, I can only conclude that you have never tried a Westside style program nor any means of accomodating resistance, except, perhaps, Nautilus cams.
:rolleyes:
More recently I’ve gone towards emphasizing more power movements i.e. hop squats, jerks, 1-leg power leg presses - As a sprinter with a small bone structure, but stronger lower body - I eventually came up to a limit with squats on the weight I felt like I could handle (felt like my spine and upper body were going to be crushed like a can but my legs would still be standing their holding the weight)
I now incorporate more of a phase based or periodized approach where earlier in the season I work on more absolute strength with heavy squats/deadlifts/legpresses,etc.- but later work to change that strength to power by switching to jerks/hop squats/1-leg power leg presses - actions that more similate sprinting -
this year I’ve also started working on what I call “Specific Power Endurance” -As the 100m & 200m seem to be a test of Power Endurance - Or how fast you can exert Maximum force for How long efficiently - So I’m working on increasing the maximum weight that I can lift powerfully for 23-25 reps (#steps in the 100m)
On top of all this I’m keying in on the MOST important lifts being Hip Extension and Hip Flexion esp. with the Free Motion Type Machines…
…all of this is my “laymans” experimentation - any thoughts from you experts?
David W response to jman316,
Quote:
Originally Posted by jman316
David, let’s first acknowledge that chains, bands, weight releasers, etc., are all methods of accomodating resistance, which you already know. However, it must be noted, in contrast to what you posted, that when box squatting, benching, deadlifting, etc, with bar weight AND bands (which together total around the 40-60%1RM range at the top) that the bar speed is FASTER then 40-60%1RM of bar weight alone. This has even been illustrated by Louie Simmons in Westside videos.
Overspeed eccentrics yield faster concentrics. Overspeed eccentrics cannot be accomplished without the aid of AR.
The only instance in which AR would limit bar speed is in concentric only lifts.
DE squatting with AR is an effective RFD stimulus for increasing vertical jump performance and sprint starts. I say this based on practical observations of my own athletes.
Practical observations out weigh theoretical objections.
David, what findings lead you to state that AR limits bar speed, other than concentric only lifts? And WHY do you feel that DE squatting with AR is only effective for PL’s?
James.
David W replies by saying,
2 things:
- You pause on the box to break the eccentric:concentric chain
- If bar speed is not reduced the load must be decelerated else it would be thrown off the shoulders (and that would defeat the primary reason behind their use in the first place).
Dynamic squats with AR are just another maximum force stimulus (in relation to the outer range).
FYI
I am currently researching the effects of Post Activation Potentiation on speed strength. 3 repetitions at 90% in the squat cause a significant potentiation in CMJ performance. Guess what happens when the same protocol is repeated with bands? Performance declines! It fucks up motor control.
I quit doing cleans due to the risk of injury to the tendons in the arms and legs. I prefer to do 1/4 squats and single legged 1/4 leg presses. Compared to cleans I have developed increased power in the legs which allow me to handle each stride out of the blocks and I perform elasticity excercise to complement. I think cleans can be done another way in which I carry heavy dumbells and do vertical jumps. This is the plyometric component.
I tried cleans and if you get you back/arms/legs wrong in the lift…you pay for it.
PS 100m sprinter.
Cheers
This also for powerman and kyle coleman,
In agreement with David W and also Boyd Epley (Founder of NSCA),
On Page 55 of “The Path To Atheletic Power”
"Principle 5: Progressive Overload
Some coaches have added chains or bands to their lifts in an attempt to provided an overload during the lift. This is the opposite of what an athlete needs. To be explosive, we must train with acceleration throughout the movement. Adding a chain or band actually slows down the movement, and the movement gets harder as the bar is moved through the range of motion. That kind of training won’t provide for the explosive overload needed in powersports. Recently, a high school coach told me of his state champion shot-putter who lost four feet on his throw during his freshman year at a university that was adding chains to his bench press. The shot-putter was forced to go back to his high school to train explosively in the summer to regain his former throwing distance."
So for sports their you have it. I would only recommend training with bands and chains in the intermediate stage of an athlete, once he has already learned the correct movement pattern. What this does is it helps to teach compensatory acceleration. At the advanced/elite stage these bands ruin to much of the athletic performance and so should be avoided accept maybe in the GPP stage where the bands might I repeat might help in maximum strength. :eek:
I just have to clear up this misinformation Especially in that last post. There is no way benching w/ bands would cause a 4 foot drop in the shot. There are WAY too many other factors. Maybe he was using a 16 lb shot.
You seem to miss the whole point of bands or even lifting in general. Yes the bands may slow you down (but so does having to decelerate the final half of the movement). Which can you do faster unweighted squats or squats with 60% of your max? obviously bodyweight only. Which would benefit vj and sports performance more. Obviously the weighted squats. This is analogous to bands. The bands forced you to accelerate throughout the movement instead of throwing the breaks on 1/2 way up. Which is more beneficial for athletes? You must remember it is the intention to move the weight quickly which is most important not actual bar speed that influences the development of speed-strength.
you said it. Bands are one of the few ways you can achieve acceleration throughout the movement. Along with max effort lifts, and throwing the load, and movements where you leave the ground
I had made this conjecture awhile ago and now I have the evidence to back it up!
From Vladimar Zatsiosrky, “Science and Practice of Strength Training”, Zatsiosrky states, “there is no reason to develop the strength of hip flexor muscles in their weakest position, as recommended by the peak-contraction principle, because in this range of motion it is the hip extensors, not flexors that are active…The same is true for exercises with accomodating resistance. There is no need for athletes to train maximal strength over the full range of motion if the maximal force is required in only a small part of the range.” (pg 152).
As well he states, “Scientific experts have often questioned the validity of claims for high exercise efficiency with accomadating resistance. Exercises performed with strength training machines [and hence bands] are biomechanically different from natural movements and traditional exercises…the typical acceleration-deceleration pattern is also different.” (pg 151)!
Although bands may or may not biomechanically be different from doing a regular bench press, the bands do train the lifter in an improper way as Zatsiosrky states above!
P.S. Remeber that the Westside Barbell Club uses many different strategies in order to increase ones maximal strength including getting past sticking points and also avoiding plateus. Such things as the board press, changing exercises (as Zatsiosrky mentions), increase in volume throughout the years (again as Zatsiosrky mentions about the Bulgarians) and etc, etc, etc. So therefore, the WSBC uses many different strategies to get strong and bands are supposedly one of those strategies; however, I beg to differ in this claim of bands increasing one’s bench press or squat because once you get past the weakest point in the lift (usually the bottom in the bench press) there is no need to develop further strength (i.e. bands) in other ROM bc it will not help your lift! 
why do you feel the bottom position is always the sticking point??? considering this isn’t always true, you’ve already explained why bands would be useful.