Are cleans the exercise to do??

The Forums Strength
141

Interesting that you bring this up. I tend to classify concentric-only and paused work under the same umbrella as ballistic and CAT work; they’re all done for development of explosive strength (and RFD/power, but even that is something I consider a subset of explosive strength).

It’s when you consider the different facets of explosive strength (which is just the peak force generated on the RFD curve) that you need to consider your methods carefully-- are you training starting strength or acceleration strength? Physical display of power, or explosive strength under heavy loads?

And this is still a different discussion than the transferrence of weight room training to NON-weight room activities.

Agreed-- that’s a whole different animal. RFD is highly specific to the movement and load. Doing non-specific explosiveness training can help to a degree, but it won’t help specific technique/skill. I think this is where you’ll notice the effects of “general” preparedness and strengthening, more so than you would in something like PLing or Weightlifting, where the training is the skill.

142

Wrong… the bar is only moving slow at the weakest points in the lift. Relatively speaking the bar is moving quite quickly at the points where the lifter is strongest. I’m personally very strong off the floor in the deadlift and very strong at the top. I stall generally just below the knees.

I do both with my girls, lighter speed work (which IS just as much technique work and Simmons/Tate have written that a box squat is a great way to improve competition squat technique) at 55-60% and max effort work in the competition lifts (generally using 85-95% 1RM, no missed reps, no grinding, no RM loads).

The box squat helps free squat technique because it strengthens the posterior chain better than any other squat and teaches the lifter to sit BACK instead of down. Not because of the specificity of the exercise… No one can properly box squat what they can free squat. Having 100% of a 1RM on your back is different than having 90%. Your lifters need to learn to strain in order to mimic competition. Your protocol is like saying a sprinter can run at 11 m/s in order to improve top speed when their true top speed is 12.5 m/s. Bloody ridiculous. Sure you may see some improvement. But it would be less than optimal.

In the link you gave me you also say you do no good mornings because they are dangerous. My eyes are in the back of my head. You also preach on about how the SSC does not take place in competetive lifts. Most american federations don’t have you pause for 4 seconds (and sometimes there is next to no pause in the squat). Therefore the SSC does play a role in trained lifters. Also, reactive strength training has several benefits (accentuated eccentrics anybody?) that could definetely transfer into more pounds lifted.

The fact is that strength training is general. If you want to improve your olympic lifts then do them. If you want to improve your jumping than jump. So olympic lifters happen to be fast? Basketball players tend to be tall. Football players tend to be big. Every sport gives an athlete a general adaptations which carry over to other sports. What stupid strength coaches do is practice someone else’s sport (especially when the reason the athlete does not participate is said sport is because his/her body is not optimal) in order to receive such adaptations. Athletes should not lift like lifters. Everyone has their priorities which determine weight room protocols. Every athlete is different. I don’t use the clean and snatch at all anymore. They are a pain in the ass to do technically speaking and impossible to do when fatigued. If you screw them up they can be rather painful. I know that if I learned how to do the lifts well these problems would go away. But I neither want to nor need to. They are not necessary. Now I know you will compare this to the good morning example. But all a good morning involves is sticking your rear out while bending at the hips. Here’s what I think. The exercises to do are the ones that keep you from getting injured (imbalances), help to train your nervous system (most notably the recruitment of MORE muscle fibers), hypertrophy your body to the optimal levels for you in your sport, and provide other general adaptations you may be seeking.

143

i think the program is simply a very bad version of westside (i hate to even call it that). the squat and speed squat days don’t make sense. the whole point of the conjugate system is to avoid burnout. if they’re getting killed grinding out heavy squats every week, change the exercise. and then on speed days you do heavy deads then speed squats??? did you ever think doing heavy squats and box squats in one day and then heavy deads and speed squats the other is causing the burnout. and chains and bands don’t work for raw lifters, how does that make any sense?

these two quotes are from your posts:

  1. “When I have my girls speed bench or squat, they do it from a dead pause (none of this stupid reactive shit ala WSB, you can’t use the SSC in bench so why train it). Having them press as hard as possible (for speed) should help ‘teach’ their CNS to fire maximally from the dead stop.”

  2. “From what I can tell, the WSB guys train speed bench by dropping the bar, catching it and pressing as fast as possible. Basically relying on SSC (stretch-shorten cycle).”

first, stupid reactive shit? please elaborate…maybe you’re missing the point of their DE days.

second, i’ve never seen westside drop the bar, catch it and press it as fast as possible. where are you getting this info?

i just can’t believe some of the things i’m reading…basically what i’ve learned from your program is what not to do.

144

Wrong… the bar is only moving slow at the weakest points in the lift. Relatively speaking the bar is moving quite quickly at the points where the lifter is strongest. I’m personally very strong off the floor in the deadlift and very strong at the top. I stall generally just below the knees.

I think you are just repeating what Lyle mentioned. The bar moves and can move quickly at the points where the lifter is strongest is because less force has to be applied and therefore the muscle shorteneing velocity is/can be greater.Similarly, the bar moves slowly and will move slowly at points where the lifter is weakest so as to build as many crossbridges as possible. Lyle just explained your analogy in the classic force-velocity curve. Both are right.

The box squat helps free squat technique because it strengthens the posterior chain better than any other squat and teaches the lifter to sit BACK instead of down. Not because of the specificity of the exercise

Again, I guess if you read Lyle posts you might find he agrees with here too. Lyle said, “which IS just as much TECHNIUQE WORK and Simmons/Tate have written that a box squat is a great way to improve competition squat technique”.

Having 100% of a 1RM on your back is different than having 90%. Your lifters need to learn to strain in order to mimic competition

True. I guess the very reason he has Box squats peaking to RM during the final week.

You also preach on about how the SSC does not take place in competetive lifts. Most american federations don’t have you pause for 4 seconds (and sometimes there is next to no pause in the squat). Therefore the SSC does play a role in trained lifters

Even if there is an SSC, the PLing gear makes training SSC just secondary.As you afforementioned, squat utilizes the SSC to a much greater extent than any other lifts owing to the relatively long muscle and tendon length of the limb muscultaure and therfore greater tendon compliance and greater force potentiation. Even so, I am doubtful how much carryover can we expect from training SSC with submaximal weight to a maximal weight. Like you said having a 100% of RM is different than having a 90%. The same applies when SSC is trained.I suppose it is like expecting an improvement in weighted plyometrics by doing Plyometrics than doing it the other way round.

Anyhow, Lyle will be the best person to justify his comments.

145

I think I’m going to start a poll ‘Westside is the best powerlifiting program, yes or no’

I could very well argue that westside have just set up a program and promoted it this way so they can sell loads of their accesories. This would be very cynical, and I don’t believe it, but I could still put the case forward, as there are other ways than westside program to get to the top.

I believe that to claim that there is one best way to train in terms of a program is delusional. And yes maybe different athletes need differing programs, but I challenge you to show that it is not the implementation of a program that is to blame if an athlete does not progress.

If you want to get into the genetics debate, I can challenge you there as well.

146

i think the program is simply a very bad version of westside (i hate to even call it that). the squat and speed squat days don’t make sense. the whole point of the conjugate system is to avoid burnout. if they’re getting killed grinding out heavy squats every week, change the exercise

I still donot understand how you can keep the intensity at around 90% and expect CNS to recover or avoid getting fried by changing exercies. It is the “same” CNS that drives impulses for exercises whether its a box squat or a squat, or even a bench press. This is one of the coomon criticism raised against WSB method.Of course the system works, but their justification for changing exercises to avoid CNS burnout goes against basic neuromuscular physiology.

147

thats a good point and i’ve had those same questions myself. but i do feel like switching exercises helps to some degree, maybe its more of a mental thing. also, every 12 weeks or so going to a higher rep scheme for 2-3 weeks helps with cns burnout as well.

over at elitefts, coach x and 62 post the training logs they use with their football team. very interesting stuff. i know last year they used to introduce a ME lift and go to around 90-92% max and the following week they would go for a pr, then switch exercises. this year they might be using something a little different but its basically the same premise.

148

If you lift weights faster (i.e. 65% of 1RM) you’ll develop more power. For example, when doing bench press, do it on the smith machine. Yes, your biomechanics will change slightly but you’ll notice your medicine ball throws going through the roof. Go with decent speed on the eccentric part of the lift (decent meaning you can control the bar with a constant speed going downwards) and explode the bar to has high as possible on the concentric phase, catch the bar on its downward progression and repeat. This takes much skill, as well as, you need two spotters on both sides and one in the middle as safety precautions and racks if possible. Also instead of bands I would recommend OL. OL’s integrate better total body movement and better Neuromuscler coordination and MU recruitment and this is beneficial to sprinting.

149

First of all, safety is the most important thing in lifting weights. Second, that being said, you still have lift heavy in order to produce strength gains in elite athletes. Third, according to Tudor Bompa’s “Laws of Strength Training”, you have to develop joint flexibility, then tendon/ligament strength (before muscle strength), then develop core strength (before limbs), and then muscle strength (lifting heavy). Only when you have done these things then still your only half ready. The next thing you have do is seek out a professional olympic-lifting coach (or one who knows what he is doing) and perfect your technique or you risk serious injury

150

Oh you had to go and do that.

Why don’t you show me exactly where I said you wouldn’t, Sir Newton? All my quoted post referred to was the training effectiveness of bands that I experienced, and the physiological effects of said training. But if you want to make it a fight, let’s continue:

For example, when doing bench press, do it on the smith machine. Yes, your biomechanics will change slightly but you’ll notice your medicine ball throws going through the roof.

Right, because training for medicine ball throws is the goal, isn’t it Sir Newton? I don’t suppose that actual improvement in the bench press would be relevant at all, since that’s what you’re training for, right?

Go with decent speed on the eccentric part of the lift (decent meaning you can control the bar with a constant speed going downwards) and explode the bar to has high as possible on the concentric phase, catch the bar on its downward progression and repeat. This takes much skill, as well as, you need two spotters on both sides and one in the middle as safety precautions and racks if possible. This will develop more power in the upper body than the olympic lifts; however, OL’s integrate better total body movement and better biomechanics for sprinting.

Right, so you try to flame me, then come up with these jewels that are apparently trying to make you seem smart:

“This will develop more power in the upper body than the olympic lifts”

***Which Olympic lifts? Did you forget about the jerk and the push-press? And don’t give me any fucking lip about the push-press not being an Olympic lift. For the purpose of sports training, the Oly lifts include the partial and assistance lifts, and I’d even go as far as to include the now-absent Press.

When you say power, do you even what quality you’re talking about? The bench throws you talk about above are going to maximize reactive ability and the starting-strength component of explosiveness. Power is the break-even point between force and velocity; If you want to develop de facto power, you need to be working in the 55-65% range. If you want to develop maximal RFD, which is the quality needed most for maximal strength, you need to work with both of those as well as heavier weights. Gee, I wonder just where bands could come into this equation?

“OL’s integrate better total body movement and biomechanics for sprinting”

***Care to explain this one? Just what is “better total body movement”? Better than a bench press? Or better than a sprint? How, qualitatively, is it better?

Better biomechanics for sprinting? In what way? It’s better than a sprint? Are you speaking in terms of general development, or of specific training? In development of strength or explosiveness? Are you implying that it’s a form of skill training?

Don’t try to flame me when you don’t even have your own clue to work with.

151

[QUOTE=PowerManDL]Oh you had to go and do that.

Right, because training for medicine ball throws is the goal, isn’t it Sir Newton? I don’t suppose that actual improvement in the bench press would be relevant at all, since that’s what you’re training for, right?

-I was referring to power specific for the chest/shoulder muscles. Obviously If you bench more and then convert it that strength into power, your power output will be much better.

Right, so you try to flame me, then come up with these jewels that are apparently trying to make you seem smart:

“This will develop more power in the upper body than the olympic lifts”

***Which Olympic lifts? Did you forget about the jerk and the push-press? And don’t give me any fucking lip about the push-press not being an Olympic lift. For the purpose of sports training, the Oly lifts include the partial and assistance lifts, and I’d even go as far as to include the now-absent Press.

  • More than any olympic or partial olympic lift.

When you say power, do you even what quality you’re talking about? The bench throws you talk about above are going to maximize reactive ability and the starting-strength component of explosiveness. Power is the break-even point between force and velocity; If you want to develop de facto power, you need to be working in the 55-65% range. If you want to develop maximal RFD, which is the quality needed most for maximal strength, you need to work with both of those as well as heavier weights. Gee, I wonder just where bands could come into this equation?

-The medicine ball test, where you sit against a wall and fire the medicine ball horizontally for distance. This is a test for power. So if after you use your “elastic bands” and then later (when you decide to) test for power, your notice that your elastic bands will fail in comparison to the smith-power bench press method that I have suggested.

“OL’s integrate better total body movement and biomechanics for sprinting”

***Care to explain this one? Just what is “better total body movement”? Better than a bench press? Or better than a sprint? How, qualitatively, is it better?

-Better than using elastic bands (i.e. jumpsquatting with elastic bands).

Better biomechanics for sprinting? In what way? It’s better than a sprint? Are you speaking in terms of general development, or of specific training? In development of strength or explosiveness? Are you implying that it’s a form of skill training?

  • Triple extension, more power than using elastic bands in the start and the acceleration phase.
152

Why on earth would you want to slow the bar down on the concentric phase. It doesn’t matter when using the exercise for resistance or power, the “Motor Unit Recruitment pattern” as changed. Take an defensive lineman in football; for example, the lineman doesn’t want to train his body to have a reduced (If present at all) “Stretch Shortening Cycle”. The lineman wants to explode through his opponent and not get in a strength battle with his opponent. When using the elastic bands in your squat, you train your body’s neuromuscular coordination in a horrible way; furthermore, when you squat for strength (1RM,3RM,5RM) your legs get eccentrically loaded and they then get “unleash the elastic band in your legs (its a metaphor and you can pardon the pun just so there’s no confusion)” for the concentric phase. HOWEVER, if you use elastic bands, then on the concentric phase the bands slow you down on the concentric contraction and towards the end of the lift your body is able to lift more weight doing a quarter squat than a full squat because that is the way it was designed by evolution; therefore, it is useless to recruit more muscle fibres if these fibres fire in an inefficient way. This is the main reason why these bands and chains and surgical tubing are retarded.

153

That’s fine, smart guy. Besides noting the fact that 1) power isn’t a goal in and of itself in strength training, 2) RFD with high loads is a goal of strength training, 3) both of those characteristics are highly specific to the movement pattern.

Which means that this line of tripe–

When using the elastic bands in your squat, you train your body’s neuromuscular coordination in a horrible way; furthermore, when you squat for strength (1RM,3RM,5RM) your legs get eccentrically loaded and they then get “unleash the elastic band in your legs (its a metaphor and you can pardon the pun just so there’s no confusion)” for the concentric phase. HOWEVER, if you use elastic bands, then on the concentric phase the bands slow down the SSCycle (if not fading completely) and towards the end of the lift your body is able to lift more weight doing a quarter squat than a full squat because that is the way it was designed by evolution; therefore, it is useless to recruit more muscle fibres if these fibres fire in an inefficient way.

–is just you using fancy buzzwords to try and come off like you know what the hell you’re saying.

First of all, do you even know how the stretch reflex works? That you wrote this: “HOWEVER, if you use elastic bands, then on the concentric phase the bands slow down the SSCycle (if not fading completely)” says that you do not. The SSC is the immediate storage, amortization, and reversal of kinetic energy in the connective tissues. Bands do NOT inhibit it, and in fact I can show you force-plate analysis graphs that find bands to be superior to plyometric action in this regard.

I’d also like to see you explain to me exactly why, biomechanically, the bands train the body to work in an inefficient way.

Now, based on what I stated about about the specificity of motor qualities, the relevance of those qualities to strength, and the effectiveness of bands, do you actually have any argument or are you just going to string together more big words into random sentences?

Still think I need help with a logical response?

154

powermandl, just leave him to his thoughts…you know they work for you, and many many others(in the thousands), so let him go with what he wants, i had the same experience with RnR a few months ago…

155

I’ve said all that I need to say for now; however, just out of curiosity I would like to see those force-plate analysis graphs when you can spare the time. Also, to spare confusion why don’t you give me a very detailed example on how you would use your bands when doing a squat or jump squat and pretend like I don’t know anything, since you already do so anyways.

156

No offense, but if you have something to add to the argument I’d like to hear it; otherwise, we don’t need any more cheerleaders around here, there’s already to many around here as is. :stuck_out_tongue:

157

haha ok…as far as band usage for speed improvement as far as acc. goes go check out the 40 times turned in by the Martin Rooney and Joe Defranco, not with people they pick either…and as far as their use for strength improvement go look at WSB…i might not have graphs or sophisticated words and studies, but I thought real world proof would suffice…this “cheerleader” is done…

158

LOL, why are you even attempting to argue about this when you dont even have the slightest clue what the SSCycle is. In fact half of what you post was incorrect. Possibly you may need to learn your facts before you attempt to argue.

Kyle Coleman

159

I’ll scan the graph in later when I get a minute. The actual study was performed by Dr. Siff and Louie Simmons, using box squats performed with bands. A bar weight of 200kg was used, with bands providing an extra 150kg at the bottom, and 250kg at the top.

Quoting directly from Supertraining page 412:

The main differences between this combined method and free weight training were:

  1. A greater mean and peak force were produced throughout the range of movement
  2. The descent onto the box tended to be accelerated above the normal gravitational rate of 9.8m/sec squared, so that greater eccentric force had to be generated to control the downward motion
  3. The stronger eccentric loading and the brief transition period involved while sitting before exploding upwards provided neuromuscular stimulation which approximates that usually encountered in popular plyometric training.
  4. The force generated during the later stages increased, in strong contrast to the situation of normal squatting in which force production tends to decrease significantly.

…

Although this research was carried out on box squatting, similar combinations of free weights and elastic bands may be used very effectively over a variety of different ranges of movement with other major exercises such as the deadlift, the clean, the bench press, good mornings and one-arm deadlifts.

Now, pay special attention to numbers 3 and 4 listed above, as I redirect you to your original quote on the subject:

HOWEVER, if you use elastic bands, then on the concentric phase the bands slow down the SSCycle (if not fading completely) and towards the end of the lift your body is able to lift more weight doing a quarter squat than a full squat because that is the way it was designed by evolution; therefore, it is useless to recruit more muscle fibres if these fibres fire in an inefficient way.

  1. The stronger eccentric loading and the brief transition period involved while sitting before exploding upwards provided neuromuscular stimulation which approximates that usually encountered in popular plyometric training.

  2. The force generated during the later stages increased, in strong contrast to the situation of normal squatting in which force production tends to decrease significantly.

Wow, it looks like using bands is providing a plyometric/shock training effect (activating the SSC) while simultaneously increasing the subsequent concentric force output across the entire ROM!

I’ll consider this to be your final post on the subject.

160

Has the study been repeated, or have similar results found elsewhere, by anyone else? (I’m not commenting on the likely reliability, just a standard question I would ask first)