Are cleans the exercise to do??

The Forums Strength
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And, frankly, I’m not sure if this doesn’t apply to any athete involved in sports training in the first place. I mean, how truly specific can you get to sport in the weight room? MOre importantly, should you bother.

I’m inclined to think that you should simply try to achieve strengthening in the weight room and allow sports training itself to take care of any sort of ‘conversion’. An exception might be a situation where the athlete can’t (for whatever reason) practice their sport, performing more ‘sports-specific’ training might be more logical then.

But considering the extreme specificity (in terms of neuromuscular activity) of training, I find the whole idea of transferrence to be a little questionable in the first place. I’m inclinced to just use the weight room to get strong, let the sport take care of ‘converting’/‘transferring’ it into useable strength. Which raises the issue of what the best way to get strong is but that’s a separate issue.

Lyle

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Jay Schroeder(sp?), takes that general approach, but his is more towards improving neural qualities, so i guess you could say the more it effects you neurally the more “specific” it is. RFD and reactive exercises are more neurally driven than limit strength ones, I think that is why OL’s have a good carryover, because of their effect on your nervous system. Other than those and I guess jump squats, I wouldnt really do any other RFD components outside of low volume plyos and sprinting itself. But again, i think specificity lays in how neurally effective the exercise is, and OL’s cant be argued against there…

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I remain unconvinced that, outside of afforementioned central drive, there is a ‘general’ RFD or explosiveness that transfers in this fashion. Or that it will have benefit over a

geneeral strengthening + specific sports training

Approach.

Of course, if all you have an athlete do is explosive or non-explosive movements, I expec the former to improve some tested explosive movement. Introduce sports specific movement that incorporates explosive stuff and I become much more doubtful that it will matter as much.

As well, research by (either Sale or Behm) showed that intent to move fast was just as effective as actually moving fast in terms of improving RFD so I find the idea that one needs fast movements to improve RFD debatable at best.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8444715

There is a recent Sports Med review I want to pick up in this regards.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12744716

Lyle

124

ehhh…i think powerlifters tried that, bout found with development of RFD seperately worked better…ie Josh Bryant was in a rut until he started to do plyometrics…westside used DE days…oly lifters(also for technical reasons) cannot rely on front squats to recover from the squat portion…but the point is that training both helps, and when you engage in sprinting or jumping in your sport you develop that general RFD that carries over to the weightroom, like with ben…

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-So could someone explain to me why one should even do olympic lifts, or dynamic box squats, or jump squats?
-It seems like in order of learning efficiency it goes jump squats>box squats>power version of olympic lifts
-But in order of results, is there any hierarchy? Could one of the three substitute for all three, or would you cycle them in? Basically, is there a “superior” option, or are they all just tools.

-What is the benefit of olympic lifts for an athlete? Is it accelerating a submaximal load(RFD)? That could be done with all three.
-Is it the triple extension? That could be done with oly and jump squats.
-Is it absorbing the force? That would be done with oly and jump squats.
-Is it something else?

Could someone not just get stronger and then use various forms of plyometrics instead?

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  1. Safest form of CAT(think of the landing with a loaded bar on you back, the forces on your spine…plus the fact it isnt a whole body movement)

  2. Also a much easier way of measuring progress as far as reactivity and RFD is concerned(simple, if you can hip snatch more, or jerk more, its improved).

  3. You could do that, thats what Josh Bryant does with success, but again back to being able to quantify progression, as well sprinting is very plyometric in its self, and the oly’s are an excelent form of loaded plyometric that you can perform in the weightroom.

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but do you really think that is nearly as safe?

A regular jump squat? definitely.

So could someone explain to me why one should even do olympic lifts, or dynamic box squats, or jump squats?

To improve strength-speed, rate of force development, and reactive strength. As already mentioned not everyone needs to get specific in the weight room but for those who have naturally very poor relative explosive power there does seem to be an advantage.

It seems like in order of learning efficiency it goes jump squats>box squats>power version of olympic lifts

That sounds about right.

But in order of results, is there any hierarchy? Could one of the three substitute for all three, or would you cycle them in? Basically, is there a “superior” option, or are they all just tools.

The jump squat really stresses the “toe-off” portion of movement. The box squat builds explosive power and reactivity in the glutes and hams and builds strength down low, the stretch range, which I feel gives more potential for explosive power up high (at toe off). The olympic lifts can do both, depending on how they’re performed.

What is the benefit of olympic lifts for an athlete? Is it accelerating a submaximal load(RFD)? That could be done with all three.

One thing that’s not often mentioned is the involvement of the upper body. I feel the magnitude of force during the “catch” portion can be very valuable for athletes like football players - But for the lower body I don’t think they really have much over easier to teach squatting or pulling variations.

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Could someone not just get stronger and then use various forms of plyometrics instead?

IMHO plyometrics alone wouldn’t give maximum results.They make the strech reflex more efficient but what about situations where you have to explode without the pre-strech.In high level sports you have to efficient in that area too.My highest vertical comes from jumping off an 75 cm box and it’s about 10cm more then my standing vertical.Seems to me that I am inefficient without a prestrech or a run up and maybe my potential for improvement lies in attacking my weakness.This could be done possibly through box jump squats, maybe olys and derivatives and similar methods.Could anyone comment on this?

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How is a jump squat not a whole body movement?
Why are olympic lifts superior to jump squats? Safety…anything else?
Why are olympic lifts superior to box squats?

Quantifying…sounds pretty simple to me. Test your vertical, broad jump, and 30 M. If they’ve gone up, then you’re doing something right.

How is an improvement in a clean or jerk proof of RFD any more than any other lift’s improvement? Unless you’re using a tendo and timer…You could use more brute strength to increase them.

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  1. Theres no upper body component

  2. Listen, nothing is a must, I have no need to justify anything, if you want go ahead and not do them, its completely up to you.

  3. Again easier to do, do your sprints, come in the weight room and if you have a pb, well then you getting better at the move which is RFD and reactive based

  4. CAT is the reason, not necesarily being better, but with DE you have to stop the closer you get to the outer range…

  5. Not with the hang snatch, thats why its numbers are lower than c and j’s, along with the fact that RFD is lost as you get older and masters lifters snatches are lower than younger ones, whereas with brute strength you see 35-40yr olds are on top…For ex. my Clean went up, but not my snatch, well at least not nearly as much as my clean…

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I’m not wanting anything justified. I like olympic lifts. I just want to see all the options and the advantages/dis of each one.

Would you not stop at the outer range of cleans and snatches as well if aiming for peak power?

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no, thats y triple extension is achieved(if you do it right) and the second pull in the outer range of motion has so much more velocity and registers the highest wattage of any movement.

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I think PL is also a bad example because the weight room training IS directly transferable to the competition movements (b/c the weight room movements ARE the competition movements). That’s different than using weight room training to improve non-weight room stuff.

Lyle

134

true but i am saying all they do is lift heavy, but because the intent to just lift heavy wasnt enough, they have to develop RFD, and transfer on PL method of DE lifting, Joe Defranco my friend…he keeps turning in impressive 40 times and says a staple of his leg training is DE squats…As well impressive verts…And there is a carry over, the athletes he trains perform well on the field(especially the younger ones)…

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Most of you have correctly discussed the RFD changes, but no one has discussed the changes in the Magnitude of Force Production… an increase in an OL or sporting performance can be a more efficient RFD, or a better MFD…either one.

It is also hard to measure the magnitude of force production between cleans, snatches, and box squats as each have a very different contribution from the upper body…

If you were to say that the top portion of a clean produced more wattage than a box squat, I would have to say, “No duh. The box squat gets no contribution from the shoulders, arms and traps.”

Also, a tendo unit has a very difficult time measuring wattage of a resistance that is changing over the length of the lift. This very fact is why the firing pattern during a box squat which has a large amount of band weight (say 135 on the bar with 200 lbs of tension at the bottom, and 400 pounds of tension on the top), can be taught to increase its rate of firing as leverage gets better. I do not know, but is this the case even with OL’s?

To be completely frank and honest, I grew up on OL’s, and left HS cleaning 1.75 times my bodyweight. I am OL’s biggest fan. They are the reason why I am out of shape, had an achilles tendon rupture less than a year ago, but still can dunk at 32.

But, if I was to use the fact that Ben and many of the other top notch sprinters haven’t used them as my justification for not exploring their usefulness, then I am as bad as HIT coaches…ignorant at best. This would be to show an ignorance for the very reason this forum exists…to better our knowledge and explore new ideas. Bands haven’t been widely used because their benefits were unknown… period. No other reason. So cleans are what some top sprinters use… not bands.

Do bands have tons of dosumented research behind them…no, they haven’t been widely used, and the research is usualy driven by scientists who are attached to NSCA or ACSM organizations…often the last guys in the know. They are trying to come up with ways to make money through backing Perform Better catalogs, and prove that if I can do an overhead squat on a wobble board, I can sprint, decelerate, and change directions faster… good lord.

So if we are going to discuss the three, we have to incorporate RFD, and MFD. Plus, we cannot discount a lift,s usefulness because of the lack of studies by blowhards.

In terms of work done in the trenches, I agree with Numba in that Joe Defranco gets great results… as have I. My best example is a young man named Robert Garner who trains under my system. When I got him at the end of his 10th grade season, he ran a high 4.6 forty (hand held). At the shriner combine (NC) before his senior season, he ran two 4.36’s back to back. He uses both accomodating resistance and OL’s.

I believe Defranco doesn’t use OL’s because it is tough to teach an athlete good transferrable form in a short time. Since Joe is a short-term hired gun, I believe he chooses to use bands and box squats. I do the exact same thing when I get athletes looking for the quickest bang for their buck… not because OL’s won’t provide the bang…but they have a much longer learning curve.

I like that this thread is stsrting to have some insight, and I thank everyone who is contributing…and Dave, I wasn’t calling you out, but your need to justify OL’s isn’t necessary… they justify themselves. Don’t let emotion cloud your posts… it is only emotion that detracts from the elite level of your usual stuff. You are a phenomonal moderator. I appreciate it.

Lil’ Coach H
cscs

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So long as the specific skill is being trained, I’d argue that the level of specificity required by the auxiliary means need not be so high.

Accomodating resistance provides benefits that OL’s and plyometrics do not, and should not be ignored. Direct carryover need not apply in this case.

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Well, in the csae of PL’ing, I’m still not so sure it’s a function of speed. I consider the WSB speed day to be more of a technique workout, to let the lifters integrate the strength (gained from ME workouts) into the competition movements.

As well, training a lift once/week tends to give poor results but trying to train it twice/week heavy tends to be overkill. A heavy/light scheme has been used for decades and WSB isn’t far from that.

Finally, max speed lifting is another way to develop strength (not just RFD) and I consider it a possibility that many modalities that purport to develop speed or RFD or reactive ability may simply be boosting strength to higher levels.

Dunno, ultimately I guess it comes down to what boosts performance as that is the only criterion that really matters: endless discussion about it is only that.

Lyle

138

Lyle… you have obviously never powerlifted before. DE workouts really help your bar speed which in turn helps you to break through the sticking point. It also teaches you to apply maximum force to the bar out of the hole despite the equipment’s support. It is not a technique workout (box squats are not the same as free squats). And the only time it mimics the powerlifts force wise when massive amounts of band and chain tension are used. Speed and strength are seperate entities. One can lift a bar bending load very slowly or very quickly. Those that do it very quickly will be able to make it through the positions where they are weakest and hence lift a heavier load. Get under the bar before you talk about it.

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The key thing I noticed in regards to Westside dynamic days is the difference between using straight weight and using bands or chains.

Up until I got hold of some bands, I never noticed all that much in regards to speed training, beyond the technique work-- box squats being an exception, since they do have their own merit–

However, having had a good six months to play with the bands, I have to say I’m a believer. They change the feel of the entire movement. The eccentric is more “elastic,” for lack of a better word; it’s powerful, fast, yet still controlled. The concentric phase involves a steady, noticable increase in resistance, but in a fashion that isn’t overwhelming. In many cases, bar speed is drastically slowed.

I played around a lot with them, not really following Westside’s recommendations (higher intensity, lesser volume, more band tension, etc), and noticed drastic improvements in bar speed almost immediately. Now that I’m out of the playing with the new toys phase, using the more “standard” DE recommendations, along with reverse-band work on ME days is proving to be useful still.

The one thing that sticks out in my mind is working on my high-bar full squat; I’d never really tried to push it much past 315. After having a few weeks to work with the bands, I was making plates rattle at the top because I was moving so fast with that weight. Similar things happened with the bench. Weights that had felt heavy a few weeks before were flying up.

Granted there were other factors involved in those increases. Nevertheless, there was a noticable increase in…I hesitate to use speed here, becuase the speed was just a result; it had to have been RFD. Empirically speaking, I’m sold on it.

Another thing to consider about DE’s effectiveness is how the nervous system adapts to high-power and high-RFD actions-- it recruits a wider array of MU’s. In that sense, it isn’t so much increasing strength directly as it is teaching the body to recruit a larger amount of the relevant high-threshold MU’s with conscious effort. When you consider the working volumes that Westside uses for DE days (anywhere from 15 to 36 lifts, depending on band tension and intensity), you’re going to get a hell of a training effect in terms of explosive strength and even hypertrophy. I think that alone makes it worthwhile.

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Let’s see, I’ve competed once (not well, I’m more geared towards endurance competition which is what I’m currently training for) and am currently training two girls to set AAU RAW world records in December. I trained a 48 year old 143 lb woman to a 195 lb bench (single ply shirt) nearly 3 years ago (she subsequently got tagged for a nandrolone positive but she is PCOS and blood work shows that she naturally overproduces it).

So how about you not infer what I have or haven’t done and let’s stick with the discussion at hand.

As far as the rest, nothing I disagree with, I don’t think you can show me where I said any differently. Higher bar speed can get you through a sticking point. With a near max load, force-velocity curve tells us that bar speed will be low so I consider it fairly irrelevant. Lest we forget, PL’ing gear helps out of the bottom and gives a spring effect. But, agreed in general, the faster/harder you can get started, the more likely you are to make a lift.

But you can train starting strength, RFD and the rest in a lot of diffferent ways. Speed work is one, so is starting from a pause with a heavy weight and pushing as had/fast as possible from that positino (to let the SSC dissipate). I do both with my girls, lighter speed work (which IS just as much technique work and Simmons/Tate have written that a box squat is a great way to improve competition squat technique) at 55-60% and max effort work in the competition lifts (generally using 85-95% 1RM, no missed reps, no grinding, no RM loads). If you want to see what I’m doing with them, check here. You might learn something.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1358

And this is still a different discussion than the transferrence of weight room training to NON-weight room activities. In PL’ing, what you do in the weight room has automatic tranferrence because the training mode IS the competition mode. Very different than expecting weight room work to automatically transfer to non-weight room stuff.

Lyle