Was he a sports rehab specialist?
Cleans are phenom, but there are other lifts that also work RFD as well, and are less technical… especially if you are using accomodating resistance. I personally clean, but hit a wall on my vert until I started box squatting with chains and bands… not only did my jumps improve, but so did my cleans… hmmm.
The olympic lifters should always be able to display better times over 10 yards… they should be able to generate the highest magnitude of force pound for pound of any athlete. With even decent form, they should explode off the line… that is obvious (they also do accel work and have good elastic qualities due to the nature of their lifts). But, sprinters, football players, baseball players all have to develop many different displays of power, and along a much wider range of the force curve. Team athletes especially cannot simply devote their entire time to MFD and RFD training… they need to develop reactive agility, not planned like olympic lifters, deceleration, skill work, etc. So magnitude and rate work are a very, very small part of what they train for…
This is probably why so many people love basketball and sprinting and football and soccer and baseball… but not O-lifting. They can have the 10 yards… it is a minute aspect of training an athlete…
"olympic lifters should always be able to display better times over 10 yards… they should be able to generate the highest magnitude of force pound for pound of any athlete. With even decent form, they should explode off the line… "
I kind of take issue with the argument that power cleans are great for sprinters because weightlifters do them. Weightlifters also jerk of course, which is more elastic (not to mention squats, some of which they do with a quick drop), so why has there not been a craze of using jerks for sprinters?? Power jerk is especially elastic, but again technical (harder than split to do near limit)
Weightlifters also perform full squat versions of the lift, where there is some eccentric/elastic action, but not a great deal in the power clean.
Hang snatches (the way I do them) are a different matter, but not all WLers use them, and the way I do it (idea from DW) is too different from other snatch movements that WLers do, and the contrast in technique may be a problem.
The argument seems like a case of flawed induction.
This might be mentioned in the thread above, I’ll go check.
“Cleans are phenom[enon], but there are other lifts that also work RFD as well, and are less technical… especially if you are using accomodating resistance.”
But on the other hand, in the case of developing starting power, with power cleans it is relatively easy to measure progress (with consistent technique), compared to other methods. This is their main advantage.
I would agree with you, but box squats are just as easy to measure progress with… both have to measured in force production, which is time and speed. Just getting more weight up doesn’t mean you generated more force necessarily. And, with the highest force production occuring between 75-85% of the max, then really weight and speed must always be factored… how is this easier than box squats?
The advantage of box squats is that they can be accompanied with chains and bands…
Any argument concerning “specificity” is tough due to there not being a direct carryover from any movement.
Personally, only my football athletes do cleans and jerks. I feel the time necessary for mastery is worth it due to footballs requirement to accept and controll force… ie, pass blocking, taking on and shedding a blocker, etc. other than that, my athletes do high pulls, box squats, explosive push-ups, and different ballistics.
Just ny thoughts…
Excellent point, I forgot box squats! (I have expressed reservations about the use of them before (being partial), but maybe at a low %age my concerns are irrelevant). I have yet to see a picture/video of someone doing a box squat. On the %age & intensity of power cleans, the intensity is not measured against a limit movement, but a max power clean.
Also, I thought it was the second pull in the snatch that had the highest recorded power output of any movement (not that this means this is a magical or the best exercise). Is this true, but at the mentioned intensity still?
There has to be some merit to the specifity of movements IMO, compare sprinting ability in powerlifters vs. weightlifters. How useful/specific/(ir)replacebale is any one exercise? Not answerable with much degree of accuracy.
First of all ,this is my first post and whatever i know about sport specific training is from a few research articles. As far as my knowledge, skills are nearly impossible to transfer.Every movement has its own inherent firing pattern, and any improvement in the movement can only be expected by exercising the same movement.The more the compicated or skillful the movement, and the more the advanced the athlete, the less the percentage of transfer.The usual arguements againts Olympic lifts are
1)Unlike sporting movements like jumping which acheives the peak velocity at the end of the velocity, OL slows down at the end of the moevemnt owing to the inertia and mommentum of the bar.Thus the velocity curves of OL and any other sporting mocement is entirely differnt.
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According top the force-velocity curve, any increase in load causes reduction in velocity.OL, for that matter, any loaded lifts has less velocity and acceleration compared to any sporting movement.
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The center of gravity assumed during OL is different from any sporting movement since the body has to move in diffferent directions to cater for the task of lifting the load.
All these three differences makes up OL a distinct and seperate skill, and more importantly a movement which has its own motor program.Any increase in performance or strength can be traced to the global nature of the physiological fctors effecting these movements.For example, neurological process cordinate physiological process, hence any increase in muscle mass will cause a subsequent increase in overall strength.
Good summary.
Disagree with ‘any increase in muscle mass will cause a subsequent increase in overall strength’ as neurological coordination and muscle mass are mutually exclusive though. Extreme example - stroke victim.
I believe any one exercise may have general and specific effects on the neurological systems and muscles.
Exercise; General effect on a neurological system
General effect on muscles
Specific effect on a neurological system
Specific effect on muslces
Effects on muscles through process involving hormones.
Effects on neurlogical systems through ? (I don’t know enough biology to know)
Further questions are now; How specific is the specific effect, and How strong is the general effect of any one exercise, which muscles is there a general effect on? To me, impossible to measure with the tools that are currently available to us. So training must be in part an art considering that.
Just a different way of saying/thinking through what is already out there.
Disagree with ‘any increase in muscle mass will cause a subsequent increase in overall strength’ as neurological coordination and muscle mass are mutually exclusive though. Extreme example - stroke victim
Studies have shown muscle cross sectional area and strength to assume a linear relationship in healthy individuals.However, hypertrophy is not mandatory for strength gains. Strength can be modulated by neural adatations too.The contribution of each depends on the type of training.
Exercise; General effect on a neurological system
To my knowledge, there is no particular general effect which can cause a potential change.One particular adapatation which is thought to be systemic is increased drive from the motor cortex, as suggested by findings with imagined contractions.
General effect on muscles
This can be increased endurance or increase in the sze of the myofibrils.Increases in maximal muscle velocity has been observed after high velocity training. I assume the specific effects are more or less the same as the genral effects.
Specific effect on a neurological system
The specific neural adaptations can be in the form of recruitment, rate coding, increased rate of force devolopment, bilateral deficit, co-contraction of agonists.All thses adaptations are “very” specific to the movement concerned.One of the most prominent neural ada[atation is coordination which can be either intra muscular or intermusular.So specific is the adapataion that even isometric contractions are specific to the joint angle being trained
By general effect on muscles, I mean that any exercise may have an effect on muscles not directly activated in the exercise. E.g studies show that subjects training only in squats showed increase in muscle mass in upper body. Doesn’t prove my earlier argument by my standards, but is enough not to disprove it (assuming the studies mirror reality).
We simply disagree. I can’t get into the biology to counter your arguments here, but then, from my central argument above, I don’t need to - current tools/use of tools available to sports scientists are not powerful enough to make sports training not part art (more specifically cannot wholly answer questions above). Sports science can only take us so far. Here I could probably quote Dreschler (see pages 148-150 WLE), Zatsiorsky (see Preface of ‘Science and Practice’) or (mis)quote CF (this site, maybe S.T/CFTS).
‘Studies have shown muscle cross sectional area and strength to assume a linear relationship in healthy individuals’ I disagree.
I agree with Popper: ‘science may be described as the art of systematic oversimplification’ without claiming that it is bad/not useful.
6 drafts and counting lol.
The point about the snatches is correct, but as I train football players only in the olympic lifts (previously mentioned), I do not progress to snatches often, except in my skill guys. Snatches and guys who dislocate shoulders due to impact injuries generally do not mix. You are correct the percentages stay the same for maximal power output.
I do not have a tendo myself, but Louie Simmons and his boys swear that max power in the traditional lifts is found between 40-60% of your max. As you pointed out, all percentages are based on the Max from that lift. And if you haven’t tried box squats with bands yet, I would plead with you to jump in a car and drive to gym that has the correct set-up… it can be an enlightening experience. Since the resistance can accomodate to your increased biomechanical leverage, your firing pattern is correctly trained…even more so than in the OL’s…
Even in the OL’s, during the final stages of toe off, I believe there is a firing rate decrease found in the legs, as you are reversing so quickly to descend under the bar. In the box squats, your movement may slow at the top, but you can set the bands so that the increase in weight offsets the slowing of movement to a very high degree.
As for specificity, there is very little with any weightroom movement. But, for the acceleration phase, sometimes the quickest gains can come from an increase in the magnitude of force production. I am in no way shrugging off form and efficiency, but with most of my athletes, coming to me with pretty decent form that is engrained, the instant changes come about due to power, not form. To become elite, then we are talking something different.
But, I have trained many kids who run with only decent form who just leave other athletes coming out of the blocks. Now, after 30 or so they get passed, but in most team sports, that isn’t really an issue. Top speed must be sacrificed for decelleration, change of direction, sports specific skill work, hypertrophy, etcetera.
I hope this makes sense.
Lil Coach H
cscs
1)Unlike sporting movements like jumping which acheives the peak velocity at the end of the velocity, OL slows down at the end of the moevemnt owing to the inertia and mommentum of the bar.Thus the velocity curves of OL and any other sporting mocement is entirely differnt.
2) According top the force-velocity curve, any increase in load causes reduction in velocity.OL, for that matter, any loaded lifts has less velocity and acceleration compared to any sporting movement.
Yep, the OL’s still work more on the force part of the power equation and are more or less entirely dependent on voluntary peak force/velocity at triple extension whereas sports movements are much more dependent on involuntary/reflexive peak force at triple extension. Which is fine for someone who’s more fast then slow yet when someones lacking velocity at toe off there are better choices. Also, like Silverback said, when one is really lacking magnitude of force production there are also better or easier to teach alternatives that will accomplish the same objective. I’m a perfect illustration of the first point. Due to foot problems it’s often difficult for me to build peak force at toe off in anything yet even with these foot problems I’ve increased my best hang snatch by 30 lbs and clean by 45 lbs in a 6 week span at the same bodyweight. At the same time vertical decreased by 5+ inches and sprint times decreased. Everything that happens in between 90 degree knee bend and toe off got faster and more powerful…but without that peak output at toe off it doesn’t matter.
The position on the F:V curve depends on the specific exercise and on the load. A full clean for example, lies further to the left of the curve than a power snatch. Additionally, OLs DO have a plyometric component - the double knee bend.
Ever read the literature on the effects of isokinetic resistance on athletic performance? Maybe if you had you wouldn’t all worship at the Westside altar…
Off course if you jump off the floor like I do in the olys then that argument gets bypassed 
There is a way to do olys for sport vs how you do them to see how much weight you can lift in em
Don’t throw out obscure references and accuse people of worshipping a certain type of training… either back your statement, or don’t…but don’t do something half-assed…you are a moderator…
plus, is it more likely we are worshiping a wetside altar, or you are worsiping an OL altar…hmmm
I personally worship the performance altar… and personally could give a crap less how many OL or westside lifts someone does… i care what improves performace in team sports…something that uses your sport’s traits to improve performance in a sport requiring any others…
i have a question, as i personally don’t follow your stats…what is your vertical, weight, height, 100m, 400m, 40m, standing broad, and pro agility?
i assume they are world class for how much you tought OL’s for performance…
since you are sweet at OL’s, and continually tie OL’s to athletic performace, i would assume you are a beast…yes? no?
just trying to see where we stand, so i can either take what you say as a one-sided debater, or an educated lad who has personal experience… have you use westside extensively?
if not, and if you have used OL’s extensively, then how can you make an educated judgement?
let me re-iterate…i could care less about what system is right or wrong…i care to make my athletes better…
so let’s hear it…
Thanks…
Suffice it to say, the effect of OLs on vertical jump performance is well documented. The effect of dynamic squatting using accomodated resistance… not so much. In jumping and sprinting there is less time to apply force as triple extension occurs. This is in direct contrast to the effect of bands and chains.
Sure bands increase time under (max) tension; increase the eccentric stimulus; and help provide a specific and effective dynamic training method for powerlifters*. But… are dynamic squats with bands beneficial for sprint performance? Certainly I know not of one world or Olympic medalist who has used them.
Nuff said…
- Powerlifters wear suits and wraps that provide substantial elastic support through the inner range. The use of bands may therefore be uniquely specific to their sport.
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Why cant one be a fan of both…i am a fan of oly’s, and a fan of westsides philosophy of hit the core as hard as you can(p-chain, abs, shoulders)…
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Not to take anyones side but just a couple comments…the focus of the fastest 60m runner in the world currently is the power clean, as well was for JE…And Shane Hammon(although very strong), can dunk two handed from a stand…And I think his name is Tomy Kono(?), but he is rather short and he could stand under a hoop and grab the rim…
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And (dont bite my head off please David
) Defranco along with the Parisi school have had great success with box squats, turning in very impressive combine numbers -
Both have a level of specificity to their sport. I think the idea should be not is OL or PL training the way to go, but what elements provide the biggest benefit
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For ex. OL’s build tremendous power(if someone stops whining and takes the time to work on technique with lower loads, they can still get the benefit), and box squats put a large strain on the p-chain(which inherently is important for OL) as do ol’s. They could be used together, except instead of box squats as a DE exercise, theyd be used as a strength exercise. They could benefit each other with strength development in the p-chain.
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(again David please dont bite my head off
) The idea of exercise rotation in a good one as well( I think among “assistance” movements). ie. for you strength exercise you could rotate with snatch grip d/l’s and box squats, or w/e combination works for you. -
And, in support of the oly’s, look at the physical abilities of oly lifters, and (granted they are elite athletes as well) people who include oly assistance(power versions) in their programs. The real world evidence speaks for itself, even Josh Bryant(a young and up and coming power lifter who has some impressive number) has great praise for a power clean. He is as well proof plyometrics work for large people and there is no need for any exercise(his dynamic effort method is plyometrics, low depth jumps, box jumps, bounds, etc… rather than DE squats, and he is a 900lb squatter, near 800lb deadlifter and i think mid 600lb bench presser)
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The idea should be take what works and what you are comfortable with and use it to your advantage. As both of you said there is no secret, no magic exercise, just some that are better then the rest…
I’m by no means anti Westside. I think many of their ideas are excellent. I would say however that the ‘dynamic’ method is unnecessary for sprinters (& football players?) since RFD is developed sufficiently (and specifically) through sprinting itself.
If however, an RFD stimulus were required, using dynamic movements with accomodated resistance simply does not compare to well executed OLs or even med ball throws/weighted jumping. This is because the movement fails to mimick the force:time curves of jumping or sprinting (and may therefore, actually be detrimental to performance)…
Additionally, OLs DO have a plyometric component - the double knee bend.
Yes, but look at the position of the body during the double knee bend. The action and loading of the plantar flexors still isn’t the same - and nor is it the same when doing band squats and stopping before that triple extension at the top.
I certainly don’t worship westside and I do like olympic lifting. The lifts are addictive and challenging and I do them all the time. But what if something like loaded jump squats became an olympic event? We could set it up so the winner is the one who can jump up on a 12 inch platform with the most weight on their back and then a 24 inch platform with the most weight…or any number of events. Which sport would have a greater carryover to sport, loaded jump squat lifting or olympic lifting? With this becoming a popular sport backed by research what kind’ve freaks would we see then. Since I can teach someone a loaded jump squat in 5 minutes and (in my unproven opinion) it accomplishes what o-lifting is supposed to more effectively I would rather do that or at least try to find the most efficient way to accomplish a given task.
but do you really think that is nearly as safe?