:rolleyes:
If the bottom isn’t the sticking point then thats usually a sign that a particular secondary muscle group like the triceps is relatively week; for example, in the bench press if you have weak triceps then you won’t be able to lockout the elbows and finish the lift!
i agree…but how does that change the fact that bands will help you push through that weakness.
from tom mylinski:
Problem – Weak off of chest
Weak Point – Bar too heavy, nobody fails off of the chest
Coaching Point #1 – Lower the bar with your back, “springboard effect”, activate stretch reflex
Coaching Point #2 – Develop accelerative strength, prolong rate of force production
Whenever I fail an attempt it is usually within the bottom 6 inches! If I get it past that then I simply lockout my elbows!
what works for you might not work for the next person. why limit our scope of ideas to what works just for you?
Superhumanvenom, you’re refernces would be applicable for someone who competes as a raw powerlifter. This is lame. Bands are best suited for actual powerlifters and athletes. Explain to me how slowing the bar down after six inches is better than pushing the whole way through the lift. Doess the fact that a squat with bands train the neuromuscular system in a different way really say anything? Of course it’s different. In this case different is better.
The first post you made is still insane IMO. The way you used the SSC wasn’t correct. Just a thought but wouldn’t contacting into a O-lineman slow the defensive tackle down? Would he have better opportunity to get past a block if he
A. pushes as hard as he could throughout the battle
or
B. push hard until he get’s a slight edge on the O-lineman and then relax, assuming the O-Lineman will just give up after that.
One last example
Take the dumbell pec fly.(I’m using an islolation exercise for ease of explaination)The only hard part of this lift would be the first few inches. Doing this exercise with bands would accomodate resistance. Would this be the best way to go about improving your pec fly poundage? Of course it wouldn’t because you only need to strengthen the very beginning of the movement to move more weight. However doing it with bands is much better for improving the strength of your pecs. Which should you do? It depends if you want to improve your db fly weight than do them without bands, if you want to improve overall pec strength than do them with bands. The same exact principle applies to a compound movement. As you said in a bench press for most people, if they can get six inches off their chest they’ll make the lift. After the sticking point the lift becomes much easier. Your training should reflect this. You should train the bottom portion of the bench press and worry little about lockout strength. However if you are a powerlifter who uses gear, the bottom part of the lift is usually the easiest. Therefore you should train the lockout and speed at the beginning of the lift to outrun the sticking point. I feel that decelerating the bar at the end of a lift is contrary to what an athlete should be doing. You must willfully accelerate throughout the movement (best example: discus throw). Bands/Chains along with OLifts are the best way to practice this in the weight room.
You obviously don’t understand what I am getting at! First of all,the bands decrease the bar speed significantly compared to regular bench press! Second of all, the defensive lineman has multiple pushs/swim-move/spin-move that he does to get past the O-linman; therefore, bands are detrimental in this effect. Think about accelerating your hands like a sumowrestler or when performing the swim-move you must accelerate your are as fast as possible! Not slowly!
I do know how the SSC works and bands work against the proper firing of muscles in the SSC! Although the initial Eccentric loading with bands may help the SSC and reactive ability, the concurrent concentric action is slowed down; therefore, as a whole the SSC does not take place properly! REMEMBER SSC STANDS FOR STRETCH-SHORTENING CYCLE THE ECCENTRIC PART OF A LIFT REFERS TO THE STRETCH WHILE THE CONCENTRIC PART REFERS TO SHORTENING. With bands the shortening of the SSC does not take place fast enough; therefore, the SSC is interupted when you compare to a natural movement!
As Zatsiosrky puts it, "Many coaches assume that drop jumps are directed toward improving the storage and reuse of elastic energy during takeoff. However, more energy is stored and reutilized only if the muscle tension is greater[which bands create in the eccentric phase]. So the actual source of enhanced motor output is the increased muscle force production during this type of activitiy. The enhanced force is a result of
*inhibition of the reflex for Golgi organs [bands achieve this]
*potentiation of the stretch reflex [which bands Elars believes achieve this] and,
*proper timing [Bands definately don’t achieve this!]" (Pg. 160)
Zatsiosrky also states, “The kinetic energy (E) is defined by the formula E=mV^2/2, where m is the mass and V is velocity…An increase in mass always leads to a decrease in rebound velocity.” (Pg 159).
So this would suggest that bands allow the user to achieve a higher velocity downwards and therefore increase there kinetic energy and achieve an increase in rebound velocity (which I believe is the WSBC’s whole argument!); however, IMO I believe that the rebound velocity is decrease because of the bands use on the concentric phase (Bar velocity)! Therefore, I believe a better approach to train concentric muscle action is to use weight releasers which the WSBC does use! The problem with this approach is that the increase in mass (wt releasers) on the eccentric portion of the lift leads to a decrease in rebound velocity! In conclusion the ultimate SSC exercise IMO would be to somehow use bands in the eccentric portion of the lift and then have the bands come off really fast so that the user reap the benefits of the increased velocity and use it towards the concentric portion of the lift! I believe this can be achieved in a different way; mainly, dropping the barbell (50% 1RM, keep your hands on it at all times though!) as fast as you can and then explode upwards! I believe this is one of Mel Siffs protocols! A plyo press smith machine is another alternative where the bar is replaced by a flat square table surface! Jump squats maybe too hard on the body so an alternative is used such as, a plyo swing which is shown in Zatsiosrky’s book as well as at elitefts.com.
The increased eccentric loading of the bands allowed for a faster decent phase of the squat, and allowed an intense rapid dynamic response to occur. The recruitment of the myotatic stretch reflex was activated because of the increased eccentric loading. The increase of load throughout the movement causing stretch, dynamic fibers are responsible for response required for load compensation as to realize full potentialities for combining direct excitation in the service of motor control (Granit, 1970).
An important component being observed was thee rate of force development in the muscles that are vital to sporting prowess ( Siff, 1999).
also on DE day, louie simmons states that bands or chains are important because the bar would be too light and move too fast on top (and therefore not as effective at the top part of the lift) without the accommadating resistance.
You replied to my post to fast! I always post something so the info that I have typed doesn’t get lost and then I usually add more info please read the post above again!
Wrong. I’m sorry, but by your posts I can tell you haven’t used the bands corrcectly. If your setup, percentages, and execution (fast but controlled eccentric/explode off the chest as FAST as possible) are all correct then you’ll find the lift to be much quicker. This isn’t even debatable. You probably had too much band tension at the top of the lift. If you’re doing the DE Bench correctly it’s like you unrack the bar and you’ve done three reps before you know what hit you. Stop trying to point to certain studies because they are all years behind WSB. I’m sure they are all based on machines that accomodate resistance and not barbell lifts with chains or bands. You can’t compare free weights w/o AR and a machine with AR and expect it to be an accurate representation.
No but I thought my idea about bands was correct!
BTW, I use compensatory acceleration without bands and noticed this has increased my lifting percentages significantly! Also if it wasn’t for Zatsiosrky, the WSBC would never even have considered bands as AR!
If you use compensatory acceleration with a sub-maximal weight YOU will have to slow the weight down about half-way up. This is natural, but does that mean it’s optimal? IMO it’s not. It’s the major problem with CA with sub-maximal weight. I believe that has a worse effect on your neuromuscular system than you believe bands could pose. I don’t believe bands are the holy grail of strength training but are a very valuable training tool. I’ve seen first-hand the difference it has made on my squat and vj. I went from 26" to 32" in two months of using bands.
How about weight releasers attached to a Smith Machine? After the descent and consequent detachment of the weight releasers, the user will essentially perform a bench throw and thus eliminate the deceleration at the top of the lift. So, you have a heavy eccentric followed by a lighter explosive concentric and finally a release and catch. Feasible?
You don’t need a smith machine for that, I don’t 
No and the reason is this, wt releasers attach onto the bar with a bar designed in a hook upside down “J”; therefore, you need to go up on the concentric phase in a concave pattern or a straight diagnol pattern at a 80 degree angle. The only way that you can avoid this is if you have two spotters that would pull the wt. releasers at the bottom of the lift and then the athlete can explode up on the concentric phase!
P.S. Great Idea though! This would train the reactivity component and the concentric phase with complete explosion! But if you look at my other posts above you note that you aren’t trying to increase the wt if you are trying to achieve a better rebound velocity! So Bands that are taken off at the bottom of a Smith Machine is the ideal solution to train rebound velocity; however, one has to realize that when training on a smith machine your biomechanics in the lift change as well so this protocol would be used at very rare and specific times!
With all of this talk of using band tension on the eccentric portion of a movement and then releasing the band tension when the switch to concentric takes place, it reminds me of DBs AMT innovation. Just to make sure that we are on the same page we are talking abt using this for power development, correct??
That’s a funny word “power”!
Powerlifting is there any real power in that compared to Cleans!
Nope we are talking about the usage of bands to obtain a higher 1RM in strength lifting!
If we were talking about power, then bands or no bands, the discussion would just be about the cleans! Hey come to think of it that is the title of this thread! :eek:
LOL Not at you injuring yourself but the fact that snatchs lead to shoulder problems!
Here’s a question for ya, how was shoulder flexibility prior to the injury or did you ever do any form of static stretching in the first place?
Military presses ever done?
Warmed up for ten minutes prior to lifting?
What about strengthening the rotator cuff muscles before the injury occured?
That would be the ultimate training tool! You turn it on to force a stronger eccentric contraction and then turn it off at the bottom of the lift for an easier concentric contraction!