Numba56, with respect to program construction for football, I would recommend replacing some of the OL variations with lifts that more specifically target the posterior chain, with less stress on the CNS (reverse hypers, DL variations, back extensions, etc.) As far as the game of football is concerned, OL variations are over rated. There is no problem incorporating them amongst a rotation of other special exercises, however, to employ them as a foundation of your weights routine (as you have indicated) is less than optimal.
Additionally, I would suggest replacing full back squats with box squats and utilizing single leg lifts for your full range work.
Lastly, you would be better off by utilizing higher percentages of 1RM on one day and utilizing either the repetition method and/or dynamic effort percentages and loading parameters on day two.
I currently have a couple of JC football players on a similar routine as I have outlined and they are continuing to make appreciable gains in strength/speed and muscle mass.
Ahh James, nice of you to respond, I was hoping it would be you. Ok to start off with OL’s are a p-chain exercise, essentially a deadlift movement performed at very high speed. I have to tell you I am just a fan of them and it is a personal preference to them in that I felt when I used a program heavy on o-lifts before, it helped greatly.
As for the box squats, while there are texts, picture, even video’s, one cannot learn to box squat without someone to teach them. I am proficient at full depth squats, and feel they will serve me well, Ron Palmer is a big fan of them, and I think this reinforces my support for them.
As for the single leg route, I have gotten strong in them, I can do more adding up what I can do with both legs unilateraly, then I can with two legs. Any kind of weight training elicits a lot of muscle mass gain in me so there is no problem there.
As for dynamic effort training, with the amount of plyo and sprinting I do, both on the extreme end of the force velocity curve, this I think could be detrimental as I perform a lot of speed work.
Your input is appreciated, and I will more than likely make some changes to the plan because of it.
As well the first day the emphasis is on heavier loads(hence the power clean, full squat, heavy bench). What height should the box be, maybe my error in form is a result of a box that is too low, 12 in. I like the box squat and how it targets the p-chain, but again the issue of form is there. I believe however I will stick with the oly’s, I like them and feel as though they provide a lot of help to me. Thanks again. And note changes to weight room.
Whatever! It’s what HE IS COMFORTABLE doing — His reasoning is sound, and Numba, I like your combine training as well — good luck
James makes good points though, especially about the p-chain extra work, which if I had access to either rev hyp or GHR machines, I would be doing them daily.
As far as the game of football is concerned, OL variations are over rated. There is no problem incorporating them amongst a rotation of other special exercises, however, to employ them as a foundation of your weights routine (as you have indicated) is less than optimal.
Somebody with particularly high leg length to torso ratio (Donovan Bailey type) is not going to have vertical shins without serious forward lean, and if the forward lean is extreem it becomes like a deadlift. When tall people do dead lifts it's all low back and not much else.
The only way to get round the box squat for the taller athlete would be a VERY wide stance box squat (and not everyone can manage that.)
Otherwise, good ol’ full squats which seam to solve force distribution problems for me.
Westside. Great, but not all of us have average leg length or want lumbar lordosis. Some of us are trying to get rid of it!
Because Ive been power cleaning for a while, watching video of oly lifter online, sequence shots, etc…And a hip snatch isnt that hard.
2.Box squat easier to learn than a full squat? I dont think so…I like westside believe me, thats where I got glute ham raises from and the idea to work hard on improving torso strength. But it is not the answer to everything.
3.Really I like the box squat only because I feel less stress on my knees, that would be the only reason for its preference.
4.And back to an above poster, he is correct, I have been toying with things for over a year, these things are what Im comfortable with and have worked for me before.
5.And again as far as the oly’s, you cannot ignore what oly lifters can do. Look even at David W, he ran an impressive 60m with no sprint training over the last two years. Am I saying oly’s are the only thing? Of course not, but I like them. And if you look at a lot of the complaints on oly’s, they are that it takes too long to teach good technique…
6.David W, nice of you to chime in. I was wondering what you thought of the my program? Thanks.
I know what you mean about deadlifts being all low back when you’re tall, but are you sure about box squats? I haven’t tried them yet, but why do you think you’d have to lean so far forward if the box was just below parallel?
I know the Utah Jazz do them, so that’d be pretty ugly for a 7 footer.
Also 101- When you come up from a box squat, is there some cue? Like what do you do to initiate the ascent? Drive your head back into the bar and drive through the heels? It seems like one would tend to want to lean forward and risk getting stapled. I saw someone doing box squats and they sort of rocked back on the box. Is that right?
When I come up I flex the glutes and focus on driving my hips forward. I really only think about the hips. reaching them back and exploding them forward.
this is my main concern because i do full squats, front squats, etc. so i do a lot of squatting down with other movements. so when i box squat i need to focus the first couple of warm up sets on sitting back.
When I learn a new exercise, or perform any exercise, I find my most glaring problem, and that is my only cue. otherwise i over think and get paralysis by analysis. so if pulling the head up was my main problem that would be my cue.
In the WSB video’s the guys tend to rock back and come up.
it comes from releasing the hip flexors. Just don’t intentionally over exaggerate the rocking.
Basketballers would use a higher box.
I have seen 6 footers successfully box squat without excessive forward lean and having vertical shins. if i was betting i’d bet the cleveland browns all box squat with solid form. many pro footballers are over 6 foot tall. If you can’t then there is a weakness somewhere. Bring it up. Start on a higher box and whiddle your way down.
like i said before i see olys as the dynamic effort method. if you are doing your olys then you probably do not need the de box squat. the main advantae of box squatting are that it is less neurally taxing, we all understand the importance of CNS fatigue and recovery, and easier to teach.
Numba56, yes the OL’s develop the P-chain, however, at a higher neurological cost/demand then the other alternatives that I mentioned. OL’s also pose a higher risk with respect to a cost/benefit assessment, again, with respect to the game of football.
Ron Palmer is the man, but you are not Ron Palmer. You stated that the OL derivatives have yielded appreciable results for you in the past. This is good, and I am all for bleeding the well till it’s dry. However, you will also experience appreciable results from incorporating/substituting box squats (of all heights). And as I have stated, box squatting (to name a few) 1. is safer than OL’s 2. places far less shearing forces on the pattella tendon that OL’s 3. is very easy to learn 4. teaches perfect squatting form and 5. develops explosive strength, explosive strength endurance, reactive strength, reversal strength, speed strength, strength speed, etc., all of which are inherent to the specific neural demands of football.
It is great that you have developed good unilateral leg strength. KEEP IT UP. Developing the unilateral component, with respect to full range movements, has a more positive carry over to football.
What is your height, weight, and max p-clean, squat, DL, bench?
You referenced dynamic effort training parameters being too taxing, when combined with the sprinting and plyo’s that you are already performing. Bro, the OL derivatives that you are also already performing are an application of the dynamic effort method. Unless you only perform your clean/snatch/jerk variations with maximal weights, which I doubt.
David W, yes I am a proponent of the conjugate sequence system (Westside is an application of this), and for good reason, EVERY single athlete that I have worked with, including myself, has experienced tremendous results from employing the principles of the conjugate system. I know that you would agree with me in stating that there are no best methods, only optimal methods. With respect to the power development sports, I along with many others have found that the utilization of variations of the Westside method pays huge dividends.
Let’s not forget that we must all share the same intentions…to develop and heighten athletic performance.
yes james i know that ol’s are dynamic work, i meant with the ol’s it could be too much.
Oh but i am ron palmer, haha j/k…
2.I am not sure on the max outs, I havnt maxed out in a while. Recently full squats with 5 sec pause 365x3, power clean ive recently done 235x5, D/L im not sure, i find it too hard to recover from these so havnt been doing them…bench i believe is around 275, as i did 265 before but am now stronger…I am 5’11" 240
3.I think you said it best, there is not one way to train, just optimal ones, and I used to use the box squats for a strength move…here look at the revision I have made…
4.No one denies that the conjugate system isnt effective, but as you said there is more than one way, im open to both and Id like to continue to exploit what has worked for me before, as you said to bleed the well dry…
Numba56, foregoing the fact that position playing is argueably of the utmost importance for a ball player, strength and speed are the close second. At your current height and weight (I forgot to ask your age/training age) one thing is for certain… You must increase your maximal strength levels in order to be competitive.
So no matter what your preferred method of training is, your priority should be to increase your max strength levels. If DL’s are too hard to recover from, then this should tell you something, you are not in good enough shape to DL. I recommend addresssing that issue.