Check an earlier post, KK was on the Phone to the guy!! The phone, you know, the little hand held thing that you can talk into and it talks back…
you quoted the wrong person, i never said he was more of a 4/8 guy.
Juantorena had 44.2 quarter speed, while doubling and running rounds, so he had 6 and a half seconds reserve from the current world record with that PR and not a 1 and off attempt at a fast 400. He never got close to 141.anything. 1:43.5 was his best. Until someone successfully moves up from 4 to 8 and runs at the level you are suggesting wariner can I’ll continue with the view that it really can’t be done.
he has to put back to back 50.5’s together, when he does let me know. I dont think he has the requisite 800m endurance or would he be able to develop it.
Wilson Kipkiter was a sub 4 miler at the age of 19, Coe won olympic gold in the 1500 and could have probably ran around 13:00 for a 5k, wariner will not ever come close to either of those over distance times.
Looking at Juantorena, you get that his 400 pr was 44.25, his 800 pr was 1:43.5. The differental is staggering. 44.25x2=1:28.5. Differental of that and his 800 time is 15 seconds. Applying that to Wariner, you’d get 43.5 at the moment equals 1:27 out to 142.0. if you put him at 43 flat quarter speed, which he very well may never attain, you get your 1:41.0
No, you just attempt to Blackmail me. But that’s fine in your book. Insults are not your go, just blackmail because that’s ok.
If you believe there is something inherently wrong about this site, as you implied when stating the iaaf wouldn’t be impressed if they knew I was posting here, then why are you still here? Do you have something against Charlie Francis? Is that what you’re saying because that surely is implied.
I deleted the most offending element of your post, but rest assured I’ve retained a copy.
Mate, grow up.
One individual cannot unilaterally use the power of veto. That’s what the Roman consuls did two thousand years ago. Where more civilized in this day and age. Or are we? Unless this is communists China or Cuba, individuals have the freedom to express there viewpoints without persecution. Clemson was voted the most popular member two years in a row. However he was vetoed out by the powers that be. Note: he wasn’t voted out.
get a grip
Well the power that be are the ones running this site so they can do as they please, if you dont like it go elsewhere or make your own damn site.
My mistake 
Note: most of my posts where made in 2003. Over the last 4 years I have made a maximum of 20 posts. Essentially I don’t post on here anymore. I simply made the point about the relative advantage of longer straights and shorter bends. However certain elements played the antagonist, and the situation has gravitated to this. Note I have only replied to your posts and ignored those which have tried.
Do I have something against CF? No
Everyone knows that in track when someone starts running fast certain rumors arise. I find it disappointing that this culture exists and that we have people who embellish this culture. When senior domestic coaches question the creditability of your friends then it definitely creates anger. The seminars at the Central Coast back in April did not attempt to separate itself from this culture. I just hope this is not the nature of track. Or I like many others before me, will have enough reasons to stay away from this sport.
That’s making the very big assumption that Juantorena had exceptional endurance for a 400m athlete. Is it not equally possible that he was a highly talented 400m man who gave the 800 a crack because he saw it as a weak event? How much 800m specific training was he doing to run 1.43? Personally, I think Wariner could run 1.43 right now!
Compare Juantorena with Coe:
46.5 x2 = 1.33
1.41.73 - 1.33 = 8.73
Now THAT is a differential… and makes 15s look pretty ordinary.
The internet wasn’t around 2000 yrs ago and, just for the record, this site costs me a great deal of money to keep up and I decide what to allow or disallow (sometimes completely unrelated to forum posts), not China, Cuba, Rome, or you.
As for Clemson, you’re right that he’s one of the best minds around and we’d be very happy to have him on board if the relationship can be mutually beneficial.
As you are no doubt aware, I grant a great deal of latitude in discussions of a training nature and am certainly willing to allow criticism of me and dissent from my ideas but I do take some exception to personal attacks against those who have spent countless hours making this a better place for all of us.
Let’s drop the acid and get back to training arguements.
i can’t find a 200 time to really determine really how good his(Juantorena’s) endurance was or was not. However, just looking at his build and such, he doesn’t seem like he’d be able to dip much below 20.5 FAT. So if you take that as his 200 pr(not saying you should, just throwing out a reasonable #), then his ideal 400 time(using the formula at least) would be about what he ran in the '76 games.
In one of your earlier posts in the thread, you bang on about Wariner’s 400m endurance being spectatular. However you kinda screwed up the formula, you did FAT 200x2 +3.5 to get what would be generally accepted as excellent where as its(at least as posted by CF on this site) HT 200 x2 +3.5 +.14(the conversion from HT to FAT for 400m and up). So you put wariner at 20.3x2=40.6+3.5=44.1 which is worlds behind his 43.5 where as its 20.1x2=40.2+3.5=43.7+.14 back up to 43.84 or using lifetime pr’s 19.9x2=39.8+3.5=43.3+.14=43.44. The last of which is close to what is considered ideal, and not ahead of it.
This does 2 things, 1. it sorta shoots your arguement that wariner is some sorta of absolute 400 freak and could completely roll the 800, he really doesn’t seem to have any better 400 endurance than Juantorena did or for that matter alot of 400 runners on the circiut. His 400 specfic abilities when compared to his 200 abilities are still behind a few all time guys, on paper at least, Quincy Watts and Butch Renyolds to name names.
The 2nd thing is it leads one to think that Wariner still has a bit of room for improvement in the 4 without having to run a faster 200, which is great.
I think you’re looking directly at the results, wariner winning all his 400 races, and saying “oh he has the best 400 endurance”, and not looking at the fact that he has a faster 200 than just about everyone but Merritt who is running the 4 right now(not counting x-man). Of current 400 guys, merritt if he can get his endurance together on a similar level to his competators seems to have a shot to challange wariner, as does kerron clement if he stops hurdling. Angelo Taylor probably has the best endurance of the bunch, but also as the slowest 200pr of guys with a really good chance at medaling in Osaka.
The real question is does anybody really know what coach Hart does with his athletes trainingwise other than the articles circulating on the internet? Phases, cycles etc? What are the progressions he uses to develop such outstanding specific endurance in the athletes he coaches?
Merritt and Clement have 200m speed at a similar level to Wariner but can’t live with him over the final 80m when he’s in top shape…the damage that was done in Stockholm from 300m-400m was there for all to see :eek:
One of the things coach Hart seems to have a strong belief about is that training for 400m should have a greater “aerobic” component than most other coaches think. He also believes that too many coaches train their athletes to run a good 300m rather than 400m.
Perhaps this needs to be explored further?
Before JW went to Baylor he had excellent 200 speed.
exactly, merritt, who is considerably quicker then wariner over 200m is in a class below wariner, and clement-a 400m hurdler, the guys who are ment to be a hybrid in endurance between 400m and 800m-who has run a 10.23 100 this year (which wariner couldn’t do) lost an entire second in the home straight.
In one of your earlier posts in the thread, you bang on about Wariner’s 400m endurance being spectatular. However you kinda screwed up the formula, you did FAT 200x2 +3.5 to get what would be generally accepted as excellent where as its(at least as posted by CF on this site) HT 200 x2 +3.5 +.14(the conversion from HT to FAT for 400m and up). So you put wariner at 20.3x2=40.6+3.5=44.1 which is worlds behind his 43.5 where as its 20.1x2=40.2+3.5=43.7+.14 back up to 43.84 or using lifetime pr’s 19.9x2=39.8+3.5=43.3+.14=43.44. The last of which is close to what is considered ideal, and not ahead of it.
why use HT when you can use FAT??? LOL
The best method is to take the athletes top 3 200m FAT times and average and then find the differential after doubling. Allows for freak races:
aka MJ 19.32 and X-man 19.63
Juantorena once split a 400m relay leg at 20.1 at 200m.
Juantorena also had a very low weekly mileage of around 35-45mile buring the entire year. Not like the pure 800m runners going as high as 100mi. He trained almost as a 400m specialist would do. If wariner upped him mileage and trained midway between 400-800 then he’d be sweet. You can’t deny it-we’re not talking about a pure sprinter like MJ, it’s Wariner who has everything set perfectly for him for the 800m if he ever chooses that path.
NB-Wariner has been slower over 200m this season, and yet faster over 400m.
the reason for picking the ht over the FAT time is becasue thats how the formula was made way back when before fat became prevelent, if you use electronic times with that forumla then you give the atheltes credit for more endurance than they have.
as for his 20.1, unless you have have it on tape, i’ll just dismiss it as the same type thing as tyson gay running a 9.6 in practice or a high schooler splitting 19.2 on a 4x200.
as for Juantorena, i don’t think you’re an employee of the cuban institute of sport or a close friend of White Lightning, so i’ll take your account like most others. People have said he regularly did 15km runs, and you can find people that said his training volume was maybe 30mpw at most. It’s kinda hard to say what he did in training, like the Cuban Jumpers he probably worked exceptionally hard, but exceptionally hard at what pace and whether on the track or on the trails to what extent one does not know. So without knowing roughly what his training makeup was, or his 200 speed for that matter, it’s hard to say if he ran 1:43 because he could run 44.2 or vica versa. Without knowing that, and without any other top level doublers at 4/8, or even guys who switched events it’s pretty presumptious to just assume that Wariner could run 1:42.
edit: I think wariners 800pr is 1:56 indoors from high school.
How about that guy from Oregon (matt sherer I believe?) who was a 44 high guy (maybe 44 mid, I forget) that has switched to the 800 and not super successfully at that?
I coached a guy who ran 400 in 44s and after pacing Steve Cram to 600m on Cram’s world leading 800 time in 1987 (i think), he decided to run 800 at the local club meet. He ran 2:01 and got beaten on the post by a schoolkid. ha.
It was embarrassing but a good lesson that, as Charlie says, speed is specific to itself.
Not everyone has a wide range of events and if you’re a 400m guy, so long as you do some good work specific to your 400 objectives, it may not matter that you can’t break 2min for 800 even though it would have been nice to do so. Perhaps on a different day in different circumstances he would have. But I said enough of that.
I think you need to respect the genetics of the individual when we think about going from 400 to 800 (or coming down to 800). Surely it isn’t just about the training process. The 800 is a fascinating event and it does seem to take a special person to do well at it (for that matter, like all the other events). It’s certainly still a mystery to me.,
Re: the 2 x 200m time + 3.5 I believe the formula was intended, as D Nasty indicates, to be used with a hand timed pr for 200m.
Additionally, every time I’ve seen such a forumula employed in coaches’ ed. texts or elsewhere the time used was only cited to seconds & tenths.
Haha thats great, what were his splits 44.5, 1:16.