i guess complacentcy is ok with you. i guess that pushing human limits doenst matter. i guess years of development in sport science mean nothing. it really isnt all that complicated, study a book on physiology study a book on anatomoy and study a book on kinesiology and its all there. but i digress and im not going to argue with you. just consider what i haven mentioned logically. it time we start training the human body scientifcally and not based on old ideas of how to become strong. otherwise we would still be lifting boulders and lifting new born bulls ( i really hope you get the reference).
james your therories are interesting, but you’re never really clear as to waht qualifies as something that should be done everyday, nor have you ever posted a sample weekly routine that is consistant with your principles. Maybe if you did that ppl could have a better way to judge your views…
Your writing style does make it hard to understand what you are actually meaning. Frankly you are not using precise language and your sentence structure leaves something to be desired. It sounds like you are a 1st or 2nd year undergrad. This combined with your distaste of the literature makes it hard to take your views seriously.
Only because some people are objecting to your perspective in how specific scientific knowledge is applied to practical solutions through a “binding theory” does not mean “compliance to any dogma” or “unwillingness to push human limits further” or even “dismissal of sport science”… those are merely your opinions (from your perspective), not facts. In fact, such conclusions resemble logical fallacies to great extent (and paradoxically make you sound dogmatic). Many are not disagreeing with the science behind… they are disagreeing with HOW that knowledge is transformed into practical solutions. When people proclaim themselves as “reformers” they tend to end up as “doctrinaires”! The real reformers tend to be remembered by others, long after, when practise have proved them right.
There’s nothing wrong with studying physiology, anatomy, kinesiology, neurology etc., and trying to apply such innate knowledge into training theory. Many do that and many have done that – nothing has changed in that way. We have had limited success in creating theories from that scientific understanding, and even further limited success in creating practical solutions from those theories. As you see, the further we go, the less effect will it have. This is innate in any scientific field, not just the problem for sports. The study of toxins is a good example: understanding the chemistry behind substances is not enough when studying them together with biological organisms and even less when studying ecological systems. Sometimes, the order has to be reversed… meaning we must first look at the ecology (and changes herein) in order to find the right path towards explanations and further understanding (as well as solutions). Do you see the similarities here?
you guys are stuck. hung up on the wrong things. am i wrong in saying that biomechanically the bodys levers have optimum angles? am i wrong in saying the body is controlled via feedforward processes during balistic action? am i wrong in saying that the most complete and powerful contraction occur with instances of reflex? isnt flexiblity neurological? doesnt injury come from an inablity to absorb force? fuck thats why people train with weights to enhance performance and reduce the incedentd of injury. This shit is real guys im not making it up siff knew about it verk. knew about it. this shit aint comming out of my ass. but what i see repeatedly on this site is cookie cutter workouts giving no consideration to the physics of sprinting or sports in general. then when i come along and tell you that there is a different way to train you insult my writting style, christ man get your priorities right. if we know that the forces experienced in a sprint are up tp 6 times an athletes bodyweight then why the hell does our training not reflect that. no fucking wonder even elite athletes have so many hamstring injuries. is there a benefit from simply lifting weight? sure there is but could the benefit be greater, hell yes. and for those who want specifics, you cant give a general plan because not everyone is the same and not everyone has the same training goals even within a class of sprinters. its really sad actually, i thought here over anywhere else people would understand that bodybuilding/powerlifting/weightlifting type lifting does not fit the needs of a explosive athlete.
Gentlemen,isn’t the tone this thread as well as the general tones of other theads on this site getting a bit overboard for the sake of a rather peaceful discussion about training?
Why is that we all feel so attached to our own points of view to feel so easily attacked and react quite violently lately?
Left to wonder.We are all left to wonder.
Nevertheless I think you make some very interesting points here,Mr.Colbert,worth at least some open discussion.
I am particularly interested in the relationship you seem to suggest between EFFICIENCY and FATIGUE through what you call “low grade inflammation”. Since in regard to homeostasis my experience of monitoring with the OmegaWave seems to somehow point in the same general direction,would you please expand on the topic possibly with reflections and conclusions (if any is ever possible) from your own experience,to support the surely well based concepts you righteously propose ?
Feedback from anybody else discussing here on this topic is also welcome!
The floor is yours give us PRACTICAL examples. No one is disputing your theories per se…its the fact that you offer no practical implementation, we want valid examples we need valid practical examples. I just wanted to add that sprinters do take account of explosive ballistic reactive strength…THEY SPRINT they do plyometrics.
i would be happy to pakewi. i discussed low training and its after effect ie soreness and fatigue with jay schroeder and his crew. they believe that anything less than maximal effort in the most effeceint postion (postions in which muscles are not fighting themselves) will produce low grade inflamation. without inflamation work can be continued and inpart why they are able to train so often. it seems counterintuitive but hormonal responses are directly linked to motor unit recruitment. suprisingly when a proper diet (by this i dont mean what is usually reccomended for athletes) , 8 hours of sleep are had, and you train at maximal effort the normal fatiguing after effects of training are not present. now ofcourse load has to be considered but i have trained plyometricly, and maximally for many days on end without feeling sore, overtrained ect. i do not fully understand all of the mechanics behind the processes but i know that it works.
altitude drop 3.2m force generted over 20 times ones bodyweight. ie greater training effect than simply squating.
supermaximal bench press 140%of 1rm heavy eccentric overspeed concentric coupled with static dynamic bench press training speed strength and taking advantage of cns after effect.
“A fool will never learn from a wise man, a wise man will always learn from a fool”
I think those simply attacking others would do well to ask polite questions rather than simply throwing childish abuse around.
Remeber no one owes you anything and that goes for an explanation for anything.
As for James posts - I can’t see what the problem or issue is at all - James is simply viewing strength expression as a neural concept, which challenges the current mindset.
Get over it.
We both disagreed fundamentally on the concept of central Neural Fatigue on another thread, but it never fell to this level of farce.
I can’t see why people wouldn’t want to try and learn or hear other points of view - whether you think its right or wrong.
James I ve been there than that bought the T-shirt sort of thing done the Verkoshansky concentrated sterngth training protocols, built electronic devices for determining optimal heights for depth jumps and so on, in fact I still do drop jumps once a week IN SMALL DOSAGES. I will tell you this… nothing beats conservatism when we talk about sprint training and the pursuit of speed. The Soviets DID that sort of altitude jump training. I did that almost 10 years ago with other athletes we went down the path that you are on now. Let me say this, heights of 3.2m jumps take 10 to 14 days to recover from and thats just regaining fluidity NOT speed not the. The impact is jarring and CAN NOT be controlled, your knees takes a pounding and psychologically its very very taxing. We did them onto surfaces that were padded enough absorb the shock and take away the very present danger of falling akwardly…frankly its frightening it makes you want to shit yourself. The the heights we used were approximately 2.5-2.8m eventually casue 3.2m is just a touch too much, but maybe others can handle that type of training. We concluded that if too many jumps are done then inhibition ACTUALLY KICKS IN…in other words the body BECOMES defensive. Also, there are diminishing returns the higher you go, yes you develop strength but the speed component of the exercise lags behind. Also you can pretty much get better results with vibration platforms. With depth jumps, from my experience the quads are preferentially trained.
Going back to the soviet sprinters, most did that kind of training; except one; Borsov…what does that tell you?
Yes plyometrics and drop jumps are important they build strength but do not make them out to be the be all of everything. I went down that path that you are embarking upon. My training partners went down that path… My advice is to take that type of information and adapt it but do not take it as the only way forward. Think to yourself James, if depth jumps from 3.2m were so effective then why were the soviets so unsuccessful in dominating the short sprints?
I have done eccentric squats with 230+Kg lowering in a controlled manner for 3 secs in the past; they are effective but only for strengthening the quads.
They key is to do that sort of training in SMALL dosages. Even then, the hamstrings are not trained in a purposeful manner for sprinting.
ok this is why i didnt want to just spit out a program or my views becasue they are going to be taken out of context. ofcourse you dont start at 3.2m and the heights that you used with your training and your atheltes were probably to high too. you guys want a practicle example but the example will mean nothing if you dont know what goes into thats why i was talking about theory. second you didnt consider that work needs to be done just to train in this manner remmeber i mentioned postion and neurological component of tissue length. that is very important to handleing greater loads. 10 days in between sessions jesus man that is crazy you should be looking at how your body is adapting and do something to address it. the impact can be controlled you know how? by controlling the hieght. the problem is that you probably started with a load to great for your body to absorb. you can use the same princples to increase the quality of life of a 90 year old woman its all about starting at a level applicable to the individual. the difference between using this method and regular weights is that when u exceed force output with a max squat you fail at the attempt if you exceed the load that you can EFFECIENTLY absorb during an alititude drop you can continue the work but your not achieving the right training effect. if inhibtion is kicking in you are exceeding your bodies capacities at the time and againg that has a lot to do with the work you do to establish yourself to handle greater loads.
vibration is a valuable tool but thats all it is a tool just like an alititude drop or a max squat or even a sprint. try to build a house wiht just a screw driver.
i dont kno where you got your info on borsov but i know for a fact that he did engage in this type of training. plyometrics were a huge part of his training and he was doing alititude drops from freaky heights. so that point is completly moot. plus not everyone is going to be an elite sprinter lets take progress as a sign of success rather than who won the olympics. if that were the case you would have to throughout a lot of work by a lot of great coaches.
thraining the squat consists of more than one muscle group. neurologically your body was not most effecient if it was only training your quads. at the bottom of the movement there should have been involvmenet by the hamstings. its like a very definte sequence of events. you can squat without it but it wont be most effecient and sports effecientcy is huge.
again if you train the body right the bottom of the squat in a balistic movement should involve the hip extensor muscles. the same muscles that propel you down the track. can u hold yourself in a squat without recruitment of the quads. try see if you can thats how muscle activation should be occuring at the bottom of the movement.
James-
In respect, Martn has run sub 10.2 legal. If he could not absorb those loads, then who can? I have doubts that people running half a second slower can absorb such substantially greater loads and recover so much faster, but maybe I am way off.
Can you lay out a sample progression for a novice/intermediate athlete (11.0 male, for example)?
How would one progress with these altitude drops and depth jumps and with weight work?
How do you deal with stresses outside of training (work, school, etc.) with regards to the recovery process?
At the beginning, you need to focus on lifestyle changes, not just training changes. Eating well, sleeping well, training regularly, taking care of things going on outside of training ie school/work, etc. will cause most progress at that point, regardless of what type of training you do, IMO. This is probably why, in my opinion, some people who do “everything wrong” ie doing XC runs to get faster or reps of 20-30 in lifting will make progress at first.
Ok, type, its more efficient for you to post openly here than to PM everyone. Have YOU done this training before? What are you chatting about…my body was not working efficiently? (LOL) What? James you give it a rest… or provide something that we can analyse. You are trying to put across your views so take your time and post openly. Tgere is no need for PM to be honest.
There was alot of crap that was said about Borsov and others; I heard he had a rocket up his arse when he ran 10 flat, but of course I could be wrong…
Anyways waiting for your posts on how to train properly. Also we made sure that progression was in place before beginning the altitude/drop/depth jump training so your point on that speculation is…moot.
So James how do YOU set the height?
A/Force plate
B/ Contact mat
C/Piezo-electric mat
D/Non of the above
If D then how can you know its optimal, now you gonna tell me that its the height where your heels do not touch the ground upon landing.