The forgotten Rectus Fem...

Q How is volume and intensity reduced in general vs. specific lifting? Says who?

A: By definition, the variety of exercises available in a “specific” program is reduced, so to achieve a set volume, the specific muscle groups are left to do more reps.

Q: How about this: when comparing relative loads & volume of lifting of general versus specific lifts, both intensity and volume is increased thereby creating a positive hormonal response & tissue adaptation. Now, are we right?

A: See above.

Q: In fact, with Michael Johnson (read Slaying the Dragon) it was a specific resistance training program that actually saved his career and allowed for a 19.32 second 200-meters. In college, battling injuries and tempted to retire from sprinting, michael started an aggressive resistance training program and bam, extended his career almost 15 years!!

A: Specific remedial exercises do not imply a “specific” lifting program. MJ did general lifts as well.

Q: Premature end to their careers? for who? I haven’t heard this kind’ve “wisdom” since the 70’s!

A: Nobody here wants to get into a pissing match about injuries, but I suggest you look around. You can easily answer your own question by looking at any group with multiple severe injuries to the same tendons over and over.

Q: What exactly do you think specific training is?[/QUOTE]

A: Perhaps this is the problem. Specific lifting as we have been discussing it is the use of exercises that can be directly related to the sprint action ONLY.
By your other comments about general lifts closer to competition, I think you would be considered a member of the “general” camp (One of us!)

Tony Schwartz, I really appreciate your constructive criticism of the posts that I made. If I was doing a hard review of literature or developing a research plan in order to receive funding then I wouldn’t use such a loose use of logic. In the past I have presented points of views that were supported by scientific data. However, this site is primarily not an exchange of scientific points of view but more an exchange of opinions.

Q How is intensity reduced in general vs. specific lifting

1- Let’s compare the relative loads of single leg squats versus a normal parallel squat. If you have an athlete who has a 200kg 1RM parallel back squat & 80kg parallel single leg squat, then a workout comprised of 5x5 @ 80% would equate to the following loads being lifted.

Back squats 160kg/ 25 total lifts
Single leg squat 80kg 25 total lifts

Half the load is lifted during a single leg squat; therefore a drop in intensity is evident. If you take into account the biomechanics of the single leg squat then it is clear that the movement is a test of stability rather than a test of strength. Therefore, training targets stability and not improvements in maximum strength qualities. As a result, the hormonal response in target tissues is not of the same magnitude.

Q How do specific protocols lead to more injures

I’ll use the single leg squat example again - given that it is relatively closer to the support phase.

The single leg squat increases the risk of lower back & pelvic injuries by.

1- Causing the COG to shift further in front of the support leg which causes the pelvis to be tilted forward anteriorly.

2- Reduced distance base of support - causes the pelvis to tilt to one side.

Both an anterior tilt & lateral tilt of the pelvis results in an arch of the lower back (kyphotic lifting) in which the erector spinae muscle group is switched off and passive structures are activated. Research by Holmes & Lehman’s showed that arching of the spine increases risk of disc herniation. It may be theoretically possible to do single leg squats without causing the hips to tilt forward & laterally, yet is it highly probably given the mechanics that the back will arch at high intensities or during periods of high volume training.

I have gone into details by using the single leg squat as an example of a specific protocol and the effects on injury/intensity- note that I use the term, “intensity”, in a biomechanical sense and not physiological. The single leg squat is only one example of a specific protocol. However, I think it would be futile to investigate other examples, such as single leg deadlifts, when the overall message doesn’t change. The overall mass lifted (intensity) is compromised with an increased risk of injury due to unstable body positions imposed by specific protocols.

. Holmes JA, Damaser MS, Lehman SL, “Erector Spinae Activation and Movement Dynamics About the Lumbar Spine in Lordotic and Kyphotic Squat-Lifting,” Spine, 1992, 17: 327-334.

Agreed, Charlie. All of my previous posts were made without understanding what “specific” means to everyone. Once again I have found myself as elmer fudd in the argument with bugs bunny, where halfway through the argument i get switched over. I think we all need to be more “specific” about what kind’ve “specific” lifting we’re doing. Many thanks for your words. My apologies for the misunderstanding. I assumed and we all know what happens when we do that.

Sharmer,
I appreciate your response. Let me present my views on this issue as I believe they differ from anyone I have seen post on this forum.

I believe that the more specific training is to the sport action we are attempting to enhance, the greater the carryover will be. Let me first define what I mean by specific so that we are all clear.

You can’t really say that one exercise is specific and one is not. There are varying degrees of specificity, and what is specific for one sport is not necessarily so for the other. The most specific exercises are those that most closely match the conditions or demands of competition. Hence, performing your sport is as specific as it gets. The continuum of specificity would look something like this:

general exercises----------specific exercises-----------competition—>

Specificity increases in the direction of the arrow.

Now, how do we determine which exercises are most specific? This is a very complex question, and one that doesn’t have a definite answer. In short, we must look at the sport and fully understand what is occurring with the body. We must understand the biomechanics of the sport action, mental aspects of the sport action, physiology of the body during the sport action, etc., etc. There is nearly an infinite amount of information that can be incorporated into formulating a specific exercise, much of which is not yet known. Obviously, the more quality information we use in formulating a specific exercise, the more specific it will be.

If you look at the process of formulating a specific exercise that I have just explained, it should immediately become apparent that not just anyone can effectively formulate such exercises. One of the reasons the Soviets had so much success with specific exercises is that they had several people of various specializations working together.

As you can see, creating an effective specific exercise is not just as easy as saying, “Well, this athlete has been using traditional (bilateral) back squats, so lets make his training more specific. Let’s use 1-legged squats.” Instead, you must look at all of the factors I have discussed and more. Can you use 1-legged squats without an in-depth analysis of the sport action? Sure, but don’t expect to get the results of a highly specific exercise.

So, you see, your examples of unilateral versus bilateral movements don’t make a difference here. Sure, 1-legged squats where the knee passes far beyond the toes increase shearing forces at the knee joint. So what? This is not a specific exercise in my book.

I hope through my explanations you understand that I am not advocating the type of “sport-specific” training espoused by some coaches and organizations. This is real specific training. Not “hop on your Swiss balls and swing your kettlebells.”

Understand that I am in no way knocking what Charlie does. To do so would be ludicrous. Charlie has a training system that he has used to develop many world-class athletes and I refuse to argue with undisputable results. However, the Soviets used specific exercises and also obtained fantastic results.

It should be noted that I do not advocate the use of solely specific exercises. General exercises can and should be incorporated into the program.

It should also be noted that specific exercises are used to enhance the strength quality being exhibited in the sport. In the case of speed-strength sports, this quality is obviously speed-strength and not maximal strength. The issue of maximal strength in speed-strength sports is a whole other topic though.

With this new understanding of what I mean when I refer to specific exercises, I look forward to any questions and criticisms.

Tony
I still think that you fall into the “General Strength” catagory because you are flexible enough to use general means when you think it appropriate. Solving specific strength issues is essential to success BUT as I’ve said "the Specific Strength " camp believes that exercises that aren’t directly tied into the sport action should not be used at all.
Although each case is unique, I feel it is likely that the specific exercises will end up being used at the earliest stages of the program, as deficiencies that would affect technique must be addressed before entering into the highest speed phases, and the speed work is applied early in my program. Additionally, the biggest loads (highest CNS stressors) will be applied through general means.

Charlie,
I guess categorization depends on how the categories are structured. Maybe a new category needs to be created for those that incorporate both specific and general means.

I agree that technique correction must be done first. However, specific exercises have more uses than correcting technique. For this reason I believe they can be incorporated later in the program as well. But during the competitive stage the coach must recognize that the most specific exercise is the sport itself and other specific exercises must be dropped as the volume of the actual sport increases.

I am not sure that I agree that the highest CNS stressors will necessarily be applied through general means. After all, things like acceleration work are very specific, yet place a high demand on the CNS. What are your thoughts on this?

Thank you for your input Charlie, it is always interesting!

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I hope through my explanations you understand that I am not advocating the type of “sport-specific” training espoused by some coaches and organizations. This is real specific training. Not “hop on your Swiss balls and swing your kettlebells.”

It should be noted that I do not advocate the use of solely specific exercises. General exercises can and should be incorporated into the program.

Tony , It is the current trend for exercise physiologist & biomechanics at major sports institutes to advocate “sports specific training”. During 1996-1999 my strength and conditioning coach former Commonwealth and Australian weightlifting champion was the head coach at state sports center Homebush. In late 1999 the management thought it would be better to employ sports scientists to run the center. Five years on and sports specific training has resulted in numerous injuries and no significant performance gains, two athletes have suffered career ending injuries (1 leg- depth jumps). Its good that you clarified your position as I was under the impression that you where a advocate of “sports specific training”- in which general exercises are totally excluded & all exercises are developed to mimic movement patterns of the sports itself.

general exercises----------specific exercises-----------competition—>

There is no single answer to periodisation & what is the right way , however the problem in shifting exercises from phase to phase is that it doesn’t allow tissues to be continually loaded for long enough for residual adaptations to occur.

For example lets consider the following lifts and three training phases.

General preparatory

full squats
power cleans
snatch pulls

Specific preparatory phase
single leg squat
hang cleans
hang snatch

Pre-comp
jump squats
hang spilt cleans
hang split snatch

With this type of periodisation the movements became more specific to the demands of sports toward comp. This is achieved by primarily increasing the rate of force & making joint angles more similar to sprinting. In the case of hang split cleans/snatch the unilateral stances are closer to the support phase.

The problem with this periodisation is that the continued introduction of new exercises results in a reversibility of adaptations from previous exercises. It could be argued that the introduction of new stimulus will result in new adaptations that resemble the sports itself therefore allowing for better performance

I believe that the more specific training is to the sport action we are attempting to enhance, the greater the carryover will be

I see the your line of thought yet the carryover or crossover effects in my opinion is better done under general means, as tissues can be continually loaded with the same movement patterns, therefore allowing adaptations to occur over each training phase.

Another issue with the introduction of new movements is a drop in training loads to learn/re-learn the new movement/old movement. Practical issues may also play a role, for instance the athlete may need strict supervision inorder to perform split cleans/snatches with proper technique yet it may not be available.

I 'll get to Soviet and eastern European periodisation on my next post, I’ve run out of time

I am not sure that I agree that the highest CNS stressors will necessarily be applied through general means. After all, things like acceleration work are very specific, yet place a high demand on the CNS. What are your thoughts on this?

Sorry, I should have specified that I was referring to weights in this case. I agree that CNS stress is higher with acceleration and top speed work.

Yes, I realize this has been a trend. This probably bothers me more than it does you because I have to continually explain to people that the way I do things is not at all like the people you refer to.

That diagram was meant to represent the continuum of specificity of exercises, not a periodization scheme.

I do not advocate this type of periodization if that is what you are implying. Things may lean to the more specific side or the more general side at certain points, but this does not mean that during a predominately specific phase that all general exercises are excluded, or vice-versa.
Certainly, training a motor quality or movement pattern for a time period and then moving on to another motor quality or movement pattern is a bad idea. Whatever is not trained will be lost.

Ok. Tissues can be continuously loaded over the same movement pattern. So what? If you continuously load the tissues over the same movement pattern you increase the possibility for injury. In addition, what good does this get you? With any exercise you reach a point of diminishing returns. This is my problem with maximal strength training for speed-strength sports. Certainly, a certain level of maximal strength is necessary, but you will reach a point of diminishing returns. You might be surprised at the 1RM squats of some of the world’s most explosive athletes.
General exercises are a poor predictor of sport performance. Many people can squat 2-3x bodyweight, but it doesn’t make them good athletes.

In the beginning, the athlete can use the same movements over and over and still get results. However, by the time the athlete has been training for several years things must be changed frequently because the athlete has also trained his adaptive reserves to respond rapidly. If you use the same loading parameters and movements for too long you will cease to see improvement. The question of when this happens depends on the training history of the athlete as well as other factors. When an athlete has progressed to a level where they need to change movements and loading parameters frequently, they will also be highly skilled in nearly all of the movements that may be used. For this reason the issue of having to re-learn a movement is not a concern.

This has nothing to do with but this is an amazing conversation between you guys. Well Done :smiley:

I tried the EQI push up this morning, and what an amazing stretch.

Thanks :smiley:

Glad you enjoyed it! If you did it after a heavy bench workout you will also notice a decrease in soreness tomorrow.

That diagram was meant to represent the continuum of specificity of exercises, not a periodization scheme.

Regardless, a shift towards specificity of exercises is achieved by changing rate of force of introducing new exercises. If this is not how you alter specificity, could you give examples of your specificity scheme of exercises?

Ok. Tissues can be continuously loaded over the same movement pattern. So what? If you continuously load the tissues over the same movement pattern you increase the possibility for injury. In addition, what good does this get you?

Under the Bulgarian weightlifting system many of there top coaches including Angel Spassov, Dimitar Gjurkow had training systems comprised primarily of C&J, snatch, clean, back & front squats other varied styles of OL where not included in the system. The reps of these classic lifts for elite lifters where 33,000 lifts annually, 2750 monthly & 640 weekly, 50% of lifts where at intensities of 70%. The Bulgarians produced numerous world records and world champions under a system that continuously loaded the same movement patterns.

The Greek weightlifters used a very similar system to the Bulgarians prior to the Atlanta Olympics, they did no power cleans/snatches or hang work , there training comprised only of classic style lifts . Literally all lifters in the squad set personal bests lifts many set world record lifts. Again outstanding results occurred from continuously loading the same movement patterns.

I guess you could provide a counter argument weightlifting training is not related to sprint training, however Christos Tzekos the coach of Costas Kenderis & Katerina Thanou is heavily influences by Christos Iakovou, the Greek weightlifting coach. Furthermor Kenderis and Thanou have worked under the supervision of Christo Iakovou & have employed the same principles to Sprint training , that Christos Iakovou applies to weightlifters.

Q Did continuously loading the same movements increase the possibility of injury?

Yes, however all types of training that includes overload increases the chance of injury on the basis tissues are exposed to greater overall stress’s, this is regardless if the movement is specific or general.

As I mentioned in my previous post, there are several factors which must be considered when formulating a specific exercise. The rate at which force is developed is only one aspect of what happens in a sport action.

I am fully aware of the system the Bulgarians use. And yes, they and the Greeks have produced some fantastic lifters. But how many of these lifters medalled in more than one Olympic Games? Dimas is the notable exception for Greece and Botev also medalled more than once, but beyond those two there are not many lifters who stayed near the top for a long period of time while using these systems of training. In contrast, look at the Soviets, who used a much more varied approach to their training. Taranenko, Chemerkin, Alexeyev, Petrov, Kurlovich, Syrtsov. Even as far back as Zhabotinsky. Having a long competitive career was not the exception in the Soviet system, unlike Greece and Bulgaria.

I think by my previous example you can see that your statement is false. In fact, proper training will decrease the amount of injuries to an athlete, while still providing great increases in performance. There are many other examples of this.

Kahki also got 3 gold medals in 3 Olympics. No other country has had 2 lifters get 6 gold medals in 3 Olympics.

Greece and Bulgaria both had a markedly smaller pool of athletes to pull from as well.

I am not sure if the above comparison is all that valid, although the point you are trying to make certainly is.

How could I forget about Kahki?
Certainly he and Dimas are phenomenal, but it still appears that very few lifters can put up with the repetitive stress their training system imposes. There are always some genetic freaks who are above and beyond all the other freaks!

Certainly, there are many other factors that play into it as well (athlete selection being one), but I still believe the comparison is a valid one since the effect of the training arguably has the largest influence on the longevity of the athlete.

I’ve mentioned this discussion to someone else, and they had an interesting perspective on the evolution of Bulgarian training. I am not sure what the original source is, but the guy in question was an olympic lifter.

[b]1969 - 1972
Emphasis on volume and long workout duration.Results in international success,however lifters are in general in top form for one Olympic cycle at most.

1973 - 1976
Volume is still significant part of training methods,however training intensity becomes more prominent.Max or near max loads become widely used.

1977 - 1980
Temporary crisis in training methods directions.This period is significant for the fact that more effort than earlier is placed on the recovery aspect.

1981 - 1984
A trend towards specialization begins to develop in the efforts to increase longevity of athletes’ careers.The biggest change is the switch towards decreased number of training means.The ones used are those which resemble muscular effort and competitive conditions the closest.The idea is to develop so called “specialized function systems” through improvement of inter and intra-muscular coordination.All this led to programs in which most of the work with max or near-max weights was narrowed down to a few exercises.This method is credited with significant increase of duration of world-class careers.[/b]

Tony can you give us some details about the specialised exercises the Soviets had success with? You obviously aren’t talking about track athletes. Which kind of athletes are you talking about?

Shaf,
Very interesting stuff indeed. Let me know if you find the original source for this information.

Certainly the Bulgarians have gotten better over time, but I would still contend their longevity is not that of the Soviet lifters.

I am not sure why you think I am not talking about track athletes. The Soviets developed special exercises for all sports. There were literally hundreds developed, with many requiring specialized machines that were produced specifically for the exercise.

Where did that get them (in track)? Why did they not dominate track?