Strength gains

[RB34]

I disagree, you don’t need to train like a bodybuilder to gain mass nor need to train like an Olympic lifter to develop strength/power. Did Charlie train Ben like a olympic lifter?

@star61

I’ve always said, "if you’re trying to build strength, train like a powerlifter and/or a strongman. If you’re trying to buildi mass, train and eat like a bodybuilder. If you’re trying to develop explosive strength and power, train like an olympic lifter/jumper/shotputter. Obviously, there’s a little tongue in cheek with that statement, but there’s truth in at as well.

And again, as far as lifting too heavy while sprinting, Charlie has said many times the benchpress is not overly demanding on the CNS, and you don’t run with your legs. I would be more in line with Pioneer if you were talking about your squat, but since its your bench, and you’re not a sprinter, you have alot of off season pre-season to work on strength and mass without interfering too much with your sprint training.

[star61]

@robin1

I actually do run with my legs; what do you run with?

I meant to say you don’t benchpress with your legs. Benchpress competes very little for the CNS or muscular demands of sprinting.

[star61]

@RB34

I disagree, you don’t need to train like a bodybuilder to gain mass nor need to train like an Olympic lifter to develop strength/power. Did Charlie train Ben like a olympic lifter?

You don’t NEED to train like a bodybuilder to gain mass, but bodybuilding (i.e. higher rep range around 8-10 and higher volume per workout) is without question a faster, more effecient way for a football player to gain mass. He won’t need all the volume, accessory exercises and single joint exercises, but the higher rep scheme and higher volumes workbest. What would you have him do to gain mass?

And yes, Ben did train like a jumper (plyos and jumps), bodybuilder (higher rep schemes on his bench press and squats) and shotputter (lots of throws and strength work). He didn’t lift Oly’s, but that was Charlie’s choice because of Ben’s less than stellar form. Charlie did like cleans, though.

[Pioneer]

@star61

I think if you and I compared actual plans we would be very close…its just in the wording. And as long as volume and frequency are controlled, and adequate time is taken between similar workouts (at least 72hrs) and recovery weeks are used as needed, recovery will not be an issue.

I suspect that is that is the case in a number of aspects-in terms of similarities, commonalities. My main issue with recovery is, if he is in an off-season program without other training concerns then for sure the weights can be pushed more but if he is doing other training, the progressions have to be more gradual and carefully monitored.

I agree that every workout cannot be maximal in terms of intensity. In fact, I think you can make great progress NEVER lifting maximally. But by that I mean intensity, or 1RM. I think you can make great strength gains doing doubles with your 3RM, maybe pushing to an actual 3RM or even a 2RM every three or four workouts. BUT, I think you need to lift close to failure, or close to the rep max, in most work sets.

I agree that gains can come about from lifting rarely or never maximally as you point out though I would certainly want the athletes to perform maximally in some blocks just not frequently. I don’t believe it is necessary to lift close to failure throughout a block but only towards the end of the block and if it is late enough in a comp. season in a sport, staying a bit under the the max. levels is enough of a stimulus to maintain strength from and to increase power outputs. This taking place while in a main. phase late taper while not overly taxing the body so the performance in the sport itself is not negatively affected.

I’m not counting those sets used to pyramid up to a weight, but you should quickly get up to your work sets and they should be performed at a very high effort with a load close to the rep max you are using. Another way to put it would be to leave only one rep in the tank on your work sets, and occasionally leaving none.

As above, while there is a time for maximal or near maximal efforts, it’s not, in my opinion, necessary or advantageous to do so during a comp. phase except perhaps in early season but when done only occasionally as the other stressors will be overly taxed. Now in the situation of a true off-season with limited or no other high intensity components to consider, the efforts can be much more intense.

However, when most athletes think in terms of submaximal, they are also thinking in terms of effort, so I believe it is important to make the disctinction and why I think you need to be careful with the term ‘submaximal’.

Submaximal efforts should be applied but intensified throughout the block. As you say, I do apply the concept of seeing how many reps left they have after each set and utilize a chart for athletes to get a feel for how many reps they “could have done” a different percentages of the set-rep maxes so they can ensure they are approx. where they are supposed to be in the cycle at any given time. The athletes know they should never start a block struggling to get the indicated sets/reps in week one and use such as chart to stay on course. Only week 3 or 4 are the times we finish a set with zero to one rep remaining though it’s not in every block.

When I think in terms of submaximal, I think in terms increasing the number of reps to say 5 per set (for strength) or to around 8 for hypertrophy. This higher rep scheme requires a lower load, but that does not mean the effort can’t still be very high. I like to back off slightly in week 1 as you do, because there is a jump in volume from the recovery period. After that, its high effort lifting for 2-4 weeks or until the next recovery week is necessary. However, anytime you feel strong in the gym, I think you should take advantage of it. I have hit many PRs, including a recent PB after a long layoff, when I had expected to go in and just have a good solid workout.

If it’s the off-season, yes, I can agree that you take advantage of those times when even unexpectedly you can push big weights. However, if it’s in the comp. phase, doing so at the wrong time can so compromise your other training and as it serves as the weights serve a supportive role for non-lifting sports you should not blow out weights just because you can since it might affect your ability to sprint or jump etc. when you need to have that in a different week in terms of volumes and intensities.

[hemann]

What do you guys think about the westside for skinny bastards routine?

I know it doesn’t work the best for speed work, but he has a set up that includes that too (at least for general off season work)

[hemann]

What do you guys think about the westside for skinny bastards routine?

I know it doesn’t work the best for speed work, but he has a set up that includes that too (at least for general off season work)

[RB34]

I never change training to increase/decrease bodyweight, that should be taken care with your diet.

Ben trained like a sprinter!!!

Show me a sprinter that trains like a powerlifter and I will show you a slow sprinter…

@star61

You don’t NEED to train like a bodybuilder to gain mass, but bodybuilding (i.e. higher rep range around 8-10 and higher volume per workout) is without question a faster, more effecient way for a football player to gain mass. He won’t need all the volume, accessory exercises and single joint exercises, but the higher rep scheme and higher volumes workbest. What would you have him do to gain mass?

And yes, Ben did train like a jumper (plyos and jumps), bodybuilder (higher rep schemes on his bench press and squats) and shotputter (lots of throws and strength work). He didn’t lift Oly’s, but that was Charlie’s choice because of Ben’s less than stellar form. Charlie did like cleans, though.

[boldwarrior]

@RB34

I never change training to increase/decrease bodyweight, that should be taken care with your diet.

Ben trained like a sprinter!!!

Should me a sprinter that trains like a powerlifter and I will show you a slow sprinter…

And that’s exactly the point - who cares if you can bench more than me or Ben? It’s not who is the strongest, it’s who is the fastest.
There is no Bench press comp after the 100 dash - otherwise go try out for a Crossfit Comp

So long as you have the muscles in the right areas for a sprinter - eg, upper hammies/glutes/lower back ect - then you’re doing the right things.

Weights are there to help you run faster - if they are not, you’re doing something wrong.

[stilljd_5]

use the current 3 x rm as a base to work from not your lifetime pb.

[star61]

@RB34

I never change training to increase/decrease bodyweight, that should be taken care with your diet.

Ben trained like a sprinter!!!

Show me a sprinter that trains like a powerlifter and I will show you a slow sprinter…

He’s not a sprinter he’s a football player!!! Show me a football player that trains like sprinter and I’ll show you a skinny, weak footballl player. And if you program lifting designed for strength or power in the same manner you program weights for hypertrophy, you miss the boat. If it were diet only, there wouldn’t be so many obese people walking around, they would all look line NFL linemen.

[star61]

@boldwarrior

And that’s exactly the point - who cares if you can bench more than me or Ben? It’s not who is the strongest, it’s who is the fastest.
There is no Bench press comp after the 100 dash - otherwise go try out for a Crossfit Comp

So long as you have the muscles in the right areas for a sprinter - eg, upper hammies/glutes/lower back ect - then you’re doing the right things.

Weights are there to help you run faster - if they are not, you’re doing something wrong.

He’s not a sprinter!!! He’s a football player looking to get bigger and stronger. Read the thread.

[star61]

@hemann

What do you guys think about the westside for skinny bastards routine?

I know it doesn’t work the best for speed work, but he has a set up that includes that too (at least for general off season work)

I like DeFranco for football players. Complex training, Heavy, low rep loads for strength and moderate, higher rep loads for hypertrophy. Also includes work for RFD and acceleration. He is more than willing to share his templates for free and has produced some good results. Not something that would work for a pure sprinter, but for football its very satisfactory.

[RB34]

@star61

He’s not a sprinter!!! He’s a football player looking to get bigger and stronger. Read the thread.

He’s a skill guy - who cares about getting bigger and stronger.

[star61]

@RB34

He’s a skill guy - who cares about getting bigger and stronger.

Is that really what you think? Bigger and stronger doesn’t matter for skill guys? Perhaps one of the most amazing things I’ve ever heard a coach say. But to actually answer a silly question, the original poster cares. If you don’t want to answer his question and help HIM attain HIS goals, fine. But if he feels he needs to be bigger and stonger, and at 6’ 5" he damn well better have some upper body strength, I’m happy to help.

[RB34]

@star61

Is that really what you think? Bigger and stronger doesn’t matter for skill guys? Perhaps one of the most amazing things I’ve ever heard a coach say. But to actually answer a silly question, the original poster cares. If you don’t want to answer his question and help HIM attain HIS goals, fine. But if he feels he needs to be bigger and stonger, and at 6’ 5" he damn well better have some upper body strength, I’m happy to help.

Have you ever played or coached the game at a decent level - plz don’t include peewee? Doesn’t take much to gain muscle mass - we just completed our workout with a little dog crap training aka hypertrophy work at the very end (took about 5mins)…

[110proof]

@star61

I meant to say you don’t benchpress with your legs. Benchpress competes very little for the CNS or muscular demands of sprinting.

I thought Charlie used the bench press as a mean of stressing the CNS, while not taxing the muscles involved in sprinting…

[tb2010]

@RB34

Doesn’t take much to gain muscle mass

this probably depends a bit on the individual though, right? some would need a higher volume than others i assume, though i do see that most people try to do too much (myself included)

[hemann]

i would love to be at a playing weight of 220

right now im at 218 (i already gained 6 pounds since i started this thread!)

I’d like to get up to 230… while adding some much needed strength. Then drop that 10 pounds as the summer wears on. Right now if I did tempo and conditioning stuff, I’d shrink down to a rail thin 200.

[hemann]

i would love to be at a playing weight of 220

right now im at 218 (i already gained 6 pounds since i started this thread!)

I’d like to get up to 230… while adding some much needed strength. Then drop that 10 pounds as the summer wears on. Right now if I did tempo and conditioning stuff, I’d shrink down to a rail thin 200.

[star61]

@RB34

Have you ever played or coached the game at a decent level - plz don’t include peewee? Doesn’t take much to gain muscle mass - we just completed our workout with a little dog crap training aka hypertrophy work at the very end (took about 5mins)…

You can get smart if you want, your comments speak for themselves. My family includes coaches who have coached at the University of Texas and Texas Tech, among others. I have trained athletes to over 1000lbs. in the squat and 800lbs. in the benchpress. I understand strength and hypertrophy.

To say that size and strength doesn’t factor in to an athletes ability to excel at almost every position in football is quite a statement, to say the least.

And to be using DC training on younger, immature athletes is totally ludicrous. DC training can work for very experienced, very mature lifters who already have a very good base of strength and size. But it is incredibly draining on the CNS because EVERY set is done to failure. Your results will be poorer than alternative hypertrophy methods, such as WSFSB, and the CNS demands resulting from several sets to failure will interfere with other training means. Exactly what you DON’T want to be doing. Even Dante would not recommend this for a younger athlete who doesn’t have an considerable base of strength and mass.