Have you ever squatted to max daily or at least every other day?
Have seen and personally worked with athletes doing it.
Please detail.
No injuries?
Sprinters pbing…?
You feel this is the best method for strength gain?
General Organism Strength: develop strength anywhere and you develop strength everywhere. Charlie elucidated it and I have personally seen it over and over again with my athletes. It’s real.
Converse in relation to the postulate of general organism strength: the less you to everywhere the more you can do anywhere. Practically: the less multi-targeted the training, the more frequently you can load a particular stimuli; even if it is of a high CNS, neuromuscular character.
I worked with an Olympic Lifter who came to live with me for a few months. Following our time together he was invited to Abadjiev’s camp in San Francisco. While he was there I was able to get direct knowledge of Abadjiev’s tactics; at least with my guy. Interesting enough, when he eventually returned home he preferred my approach to training him and we picked up where we left off.
My point: while he was at Abadjiev’s, following a shoulder injury from snatching, Abadjiev had him perform nothing but back squats for 4 days as the main stimulus. In 4 days he performed 27 individual squat sessions at near max loads; after which he made a 20kg improvement in the squat relative to where he was at prior. Keep in mind he was already a very strong squatter having done just shy of a 3x bodyweight back squat 2 years prior to going to Abadjiev’s.
Moral of the story: there were no other conflicting demands and it is for this reason why Olympic lifters and powerlifters are able to train at relatively high intensities at high frequency’s. As soon as you enter alactic speed work into the equation, however, you will experience an entirely different result all together.
Like I said, nothing special about it. Just one method that has gotten results.
I recently resolved the symptoms you mentioned on an athlete with quadriceps massage (focused on VMO), and soft-tissue releases on glute medialis and maximus, as well as iliopsoas. It took about 45 minutes.
I know that you are capable of doing that and have had similar done to me. Sometimes simple foam-rolling if done consistently can keep that away.
But are you alluding to you training your athletes following the Bulgarian method?
Example of National caliber lifter.
Trained under a somewhat well known coach who is Bulgarian influenced basically using the same method as described by Broz. He plateaued and was constantly injured. Switches to a Chinese coach. Obviously Chinese programming has some Bulgarian elements (they may max on the classics on a weekly basis if feeling it) but it is largely Russian based and involves substantial amounts of auto-regulation based on how they feel for the day.
Many others I have talked with that experienced the same. One I know used both methods and achieved the same PR’s using both methods (Bulgarian and Russian). He was just less injured while following a Russian plan.
Again, not saying the method doesn’t work, it is obvious that it does, but why use a method with typically higher injury rates?
The injury/risk argument against it is echoed by numerous world class coaches around the globe.
I agree with you,and James,perfectly understanding the scenario you are talking about. Nevertheless: in my experience with professional athletes from many sports,injuries,injury rates,emerging limitations (maladaptive responses) in applications of max daily outputs of non-conflicting nature are primarily related to biomechanical and functional faults in the system,which create sub-optimal firing patterns and hence inflammation,starting the injury cycle,and short-cutting the recovery process in an otherwise extremely efficient training approach.
And the points worth to discuss here were originally two in my mind:
- opportunity of a background noise stimulus (either max like the Broz’s example - I have no idea of whom these guys are,nor I am interested in what they do,only their use of squats made me think of this - or sub-max,like whatever stimulus you may want to choose in CFTS like programs)
- opportunity and possibility of maximality in daily training applications
Both points proved to be very effective strategies for me with many half recovered and half nothing professional athletes who I have had the chance to work with during the last five years or so. That is the only reason why I wanted to share and discuss.
If you want to get strong fast then maxing as often as possible is hands down the best way to do it. I can say hand on heart that it is the only system that I have ever tried where I said “holy crap this actually works” and I’ve tried alot of methods.
I train with my sprint group but plan my weights on my own. They usually never lift heavier than their 5rm and wonder why their track and weight results have not budged in 3 years. We all started in the same group and now 5 years later I am squatting exactly double what three of them squat despite starting with similar squat numbers and my sprint and jump results have increased massively with the improved strength.
I weight train 3 times a week after my speed sessions and max out everytime year round. In season I keep the weights to 1-2 times per week. Maxing out is easier on my body then rep work I find and allows me to make linear progress non stop. The only time I make zero gains is when I go back to conventional methods, however this time I have learnt my lesson and will never lift sub max again. Also I dont buy the injury thing, I’ve never had a knee/back injury in my life, maybe if I was maxing out on snatch and Clean&J 3 times a day I might have some pain.
If it is in fact true that you perform maximal attempts 1-3 times a week throughout the entire year as a sprinter then you must consider yourself highly fortunate to remain injury free and in possession of extraordinary CNS stress tolerance and somatotpye which renders you extraordinarily durable. It is individuals in possession of your traits who were the most successful in Abadjiev’s system.
The pertinent question, however, is what are your current best lifts, 100m PR, and at what bodyweight?
For someone to perform regular sprint training 2-3 times per week and max the weights every session (1-3x per week) they would, in my view, have to be:
- relatively weak
- relatively slow
or, if fast and strong - uniquely gifted in the department of morphobiomechanics.
i have a couple hair splitting questions for you guys regarding squatting (or any lift in general i suppose)
First of all, I understand weights are “general”
My first question regards breathing. When you’re squatting and performing sets of 2 or more reps, how much pause at the top is too much? Taking 1 deep breath in at the top seems fair to me, but taking any more than that seems like it turns too much into an aerobic exercise. I say aerobic because I compare it to the amount of breaths it takes to accelerate up to 30-40m. (Usually just 2 or 3 I think) It’s also aerobic because I would not be able to complete the lift without the extra breath in between reps allowing O2 to get to the muscles. Again, I know Im splitting hairs here, but perhaps one should decrease the weight on the bar in order to complete 5 or so reps without taking 10 second breaks at the top of each rep.
Second question. Is it possible to progress weight too quickly-- even if technique does not falter? I have gone up in weight rather quickly in the squat and deadlift lately, but I question whether im actually gaining strength linearly with my progress. Of course, squats are a means to develop hip power for sprinting. The idea is to squat to develop those muscles to improve your sprinting– not just to improve your squat. Im thinking that the idea of squatting a bunch of weight is the common athletes misconception of a measurement of power. The true measurement of power is the sprint itself, thus the squat strength is expressed due to the body’s amount of strength and power from the hips. (If Im making any sense 
)
In other words, ALL of my lower body lifts will improve if my power is increasing. They will increase fairly linearly with my speed because I will be developing power in the hips not just a big squat.
Please James scientifically define “CNS tolerance”,as you just used.
Isn’t all this a bit stretched too far out ?
The reason you experience those setbacks whenever you get back to submax is that insufficient input leads to insufficient output. Proper stimulation is required for all of the body’s systems and organs to work properly.
Training is simply a stimulus to the body. This stimulus causes adaptation in the body based on many different factors, with the amount of adaptation being directly related to the amount of stimulus. To maximize adaptation, we want to maximize the information that we put into the body through training.
There is no scientific definition for “CNS Stress”,“CNS Tolerance” as stated above yet (although this is a complex topic well worth separate discussion),and there is none for “relatively weak”,“relatively slow”,or “uniquely gifted”.
When I work with athletes and people I like to think of them as humans. And mammalians when it is horses.
Are there any defining characteristics of such a stimulus, outside of it’s stability, and to use the word you used in a PM 4 years ago describing the same phenomenon perfectly, familiarity? Can any stimulus work as long as it is consistent in it’s presence?
Programs that have this sort of ‘glue’ seem to work better in my experience as there is always to return to.
In light of this idea, how do some of Anatoli Bondarchuk’s training concepts appear, where the entire training program is literally the same on a daily or EOD basis?
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Yes to both.That is my experience at least. The phenomenon is the same I described then. Since that time I have tested the model for research purposes across a broad spectrum of possible stimuli,from training to diet to habits ,and found only reinforcement for the idea behind it.
I do not know any of Bondarchuk’s training concepts,but while I like daily stimulus,or at least days in a row before a change of any kind,I got to like less and less EOD approaches. More than a specific time frame issue it may well be a frequency of sequential exposure one .
Familiarity of a specific stimulus to foster positive general adaptation,if it makes sense.
I understand your statement; however, ambiguity must be used until we specify a particular athlete.
It would be irresponsible for me to suggest a particular amount of weight lifted relative to bodyweight because lever systems, attachment points, girth dimensions, and so on make the idea of listing specifics- unusable (ergo 'you should be able to squat XXX amount before you attempt depth jumps, etcetera). This is why weights, and any other non-sprint activity, are merely a stimulus (whose utility varies upon the particularities of each athlete’s ability to benefit, or not, from their use at all)
Similar to what I mentioned to RB34 in another thread, it is the output generation that provides context as to dose and frequency.
I agree that the ‘operating system’ if you will, is fundamental relative to how the joint, tendon, ligament, facial, bone networks sustain stress; however, all that said, an equally pertinent question is what is the output potential of the individual.
For this reason, it is why any sub 9.8 sprinter, for example, can be as biomechanically sound as you want, with access to multiple therapy options a day, and still not be able to perform maxV work on consecutive days, at any meaningful volume, and expect not to become injured.
While the consecutive day schedule is performed at major competitions, this is not something that would be performed regularly.
It is a bit of chicken and egg, one might suggest that the only reason that a Bolt, Powell, Gay, cannot perform multiple consecutive days of maxV, max weights, and so on is because of the operational deterioration of their physical structures (which leads to mechanical overload); however, my position is that it is precisely because their output potential is sub 9.8 and this yields the type of structural and mechanical stress that inhibits more frequent exposure to like high intensity stimuli.
Charlie’s approach, High/Low, just makes too much sense in this regard; particularly in reference to those who are performing volumes of max V speed work that require a separation of dose in excess of 24 hours.
Pfaff raises very interesting points regarding the different adaptation potential of high level sprinters which is why his schemes include more consecutive days of different types of high intensity speed/power work; however, the question comes down to type (intensity) and volume. This is why, in my view, nearly any successful sprint program (producing sub 10 sprinters), that is low in injuries, will resemble a high/low structure by default.
I don’t recall if it was Mills or Francis’s camp, however, an associate of mine told me that one of them was basing the training off of one of Charlie’s graphs.
Charlie elucidated how Ben was able to generate large volumes of annual speed work and this was in no doubt a reflection of the higher volume of quality work that the High/Low system supports.
James,
I would in no way consider myself to be very gifted, haha. My best results are as follows:
60m: 7.05 sec
100m: 11.17
Bodyweight: fluctuates between 89 and 94kg, currently around 92kg
Power clean: 142.5 kg
B.squat: 220kg
Deadlift: 245kg tested about a year ago
Just to clarify, i only max in the power clean and back squat, the rest of the exercises are done for 4-10 reps. I have had plenty of injuries, but only one from the max lifting, which was moderate wrist pain. I have pulled my hamstrings several times which I attribute to that god forsaken exercise the glute ham raise and also some ankle pain, which I attribute to carrying my heavy ass around the track!
I genuinely don’t find it hard to recover from at all. In fact I find the weight workouts easy, I probably haven’t had DOMS in a year. Doing a workout of 5x5 in the squat is in my opinion much more difficult than doing singles up to a max attempt.
Having said all that I wouldn’t apply these principles to an elite sprinter. Also take my opinions with a grain of salt, I have never coached anybody, just what I have found that works for me.
Pakewi,
I found in the past that I forgot to look at myself as a human and would trudge through weight workouts of a few sets of 3-5 reps using a 7 rep max, in other words I would not push myself to extremes. If the required stimulus is not there then there will be no adaptation as you have mentioned.
I still adhere to Charlies principles with regards to high/low days (I actually have no low days, just three sessions a week, all max intensity), however I am not as conservative as Charlie was and usually train till my eyes bleed!