That about summed it up!
Was just about to go off until I read your post SpeedKills! You pretty much covered all of my thoughts regarding the previous posts. I will simply add that if one wants to accelerate fully during a squat there is a way to do it… its called a jump squat or a vertical jump! But then again, that wouldn’t be a regular squat now would it? Other ballistic methods would fit the bill such as med. ball tosses, bench throws on a special device or on the dreaded Smith Machine, pushing a heavy bag with one arm, etc. Essentially we are talking about shock methods or plyos!
Regarding the full squat versus half squat, I am sure there are studies that show the amount of torque generated around the knee is greater in a half squat since the movement compells one to “put on the breaks” during the weakest biomechanical position which would negate the contact between lower abdomen/top of thigh and hamstring/calf. This contact during a full range squat of course would dissipate the forces directly on the knee joint. Please chime in on this one as this info. was from memory and would be interesting to hear either validation or rebuttal! Thank you.
as you seem to be the most knowledgeable about bands at which point in training do you feel they would most useful gpp, spp, comp, and during which focus speed, accel, max strength, ect. I am sorry if I do not have not used the correct terms I have only read the three books and am saving to get the videos needless to say I am a long way from fully understanding the system and where bands would have a place in it so any you can help offer is greatly appreciated.
They could be used during the spp/comp phase.
I don’t think you necessarily need bands at all if you are not a powerlifter. Your end goal isn’t improving your squat, although that can help Adding in bands will add further stress t your training, so you will need to consider what else will have to take a backseat to it. If you reach a level where you need to change the way you squat for further development beyond set/rep, density, and intensity variations, then it could have a place, but I don’t know of any elite sprinters or t&f athletes in the speed events (sprints, hurdles, jumps) who do use bands on any sort of normal basis.
Agreed. Get as strong as possible and in the beginning remember “concentration on acceleration”. Just emphasis on accelerating the load should be enough early on. You can begin to incorporate bands/chains when you require more variety/specificity in training. Get as strong as you can first, and then explore your options. I’ve only had 1 athlete I’ve trained use bands/chains (a 600-pound squatter).
Thanks for your help
Dear god stop the insanity. 487, you can do whatever you want. The jury is still out on alot of this stuff.
Hell Randy Huntington’s guys (Mike Powell, Willie Banks) did resistance training with the Keiser cam machines (leg press & calf raise). Yes there’s more than one way to skin a cat…or shit on Carl Lewis in this case.
http://www.keiseruk.com/products-and-information/subDetail.php?id=13
If you wanna get fancy with bands, I’d also consider weight releasers or chains. Chains may be better as they don’t interfere with the movement as much as bands do.
Edit: I also agree with speedKills.
as u will note, a 90° angle is achieved in the set position and the first few strides, making the half squat more event specific than the full squat.
the knee flextion is a voluntary action albiet sub concious when done correctly, if it was not so everyone would have a perfect stepover.
is that y all the top sprinters (not) use band resistance?
in fact i’ll bet the house that u wont even find 1 top athlete never mind sprinter that does.
and is that the reason y all the senseable coaches i know don’t use full squats bt half squats rather?
another reason y band r not good is it impliments the wrong motor pattern, where it teaches the cns 2 recruit low amount of motor units first and gradually increase the amount, this is totally opposite the athletic jesture in sprinting where u want the maximum amount of motor units 2 b recruited as fast as possible.
think about it, y can’t u lift ur heaviest weights in an ATG, it simply stresses the knees alot more. i’m not the only qualifed coach who has this training philosophy and i’ve come 2 it through experience and research.
the correct technique for a half squat is 2 allow the hips move back and not allow the knees 2 move 2 far forward, this technique will reduce knee stress dramatically.
fact!what ever is accelerated gradually bcomes lighter, what ever is deccelerated gradually bcomes heavier. now in what class do the bands fall under?
Not my fault you have no idea what you’re talking about and you post pseudo-science everywhere. Please enlighten me as to the “top coaches” who do what? I feel sorry for any athlete that comes into contact with you.
By the way, Adam Nelson and Dwight Phillips (with Poliquin) have both used bands and chains (as have nearly all of Poliquin’s athletes). Check with Joe Defranco’s athletes (www.defrancostraining.com), anybody from Westside Barbell (www.westside-barbell.com), or anybody who has learned anything from Louie Simmons (Joe Kenn, Dave Tate, etc.; www.elitefts.com). The late great Dr. Mel Siff discusses accommodating resistance training with bands/chains in Supertraining extensively. Try giving a real training/science book a read sometime. And stop the insanity!! You bore me.
Now, I am not going to say that sprinters have to use bands as they get plenty of acceleration work just with sprinting, so one could certainly make the arguement that it is not needed for a sprinter. Having said that, you are off on the acceleration/deceleration aspect of the bands. There are two concepts here that I do not think you are quite grasping. One is that the pull from the bands increases the eccentric speed, which of course creates a better potential for the overall speed of the concentric portion.
The second is, as I think speedkills was alluding to, in a squat without accomidating resistance there is a significant deceleration in the top portion of the lift. The amount of deceleration depends on the load and how fast the movement is. With bands there is significantly less deceleration. From what I remember, the peak power is less because of the peak velocity reached is less with bands, but the average acceleration is much greater than compared with straight weight. That is why the westside guys call it force training(Mass x Acceleration) and not power training(Velocity x Mass x Acceleration)
So, you need a 90-degrees squat for the start and acceleration; why not throw in there a 1/4 squat for the rest of the race then? This should be even more event specific! Have a combination of the two and let us know.
Think of the origins of this “voluntary” action and its prime movers.
What’s your research in the knee forces developed during a full vs. half squat?
Great …
- Explain the ‘Experience’ and …
- List the ‘Research’
But if the only defense is your word - I’ll pass.
You Cannot Lift Heaviest In A Full Squat Versus A Half Squat Not Because Of Any Shearing Forces Or Whatever. Greater Rom, You Have To Move The Bar Farther!
u seem 2 have a bone 2 pick with me cos u don’t know how 2 discuss something without insulting me which says alot about ur maturity. the real books come from the IAAF and legit organizations not these fantasy wonder work out websites which have dead links.
how many of these athlete u claim train with bands(cos all the links u gave r dead) r sprinters?
do u know what bores me? ppl who look 4 short cut workouts cos they r 2 lazy 2 do the real workouts.
Um, the links are broken because they have parentheses in them. Here you go honey.
www.defrancostraining.com
www.westside-barbell.com
www.elitefts.com
that is the exact purpose of the olympic lifts cos the explosive section is done from a 1/4 squat position.
I don’t get ur second part.
all the crazy coaches i’ve seen( i’ve only seen a 1 or 2) use full squat training, had useless results and lots of knee injuries. so feel free 2 join the club if u will bt don’t say i did’nt warn u.