Hi all, I know it is recommended that weights be done right after speed work. Because of time/scheduling constraints, as well as the fact that the track is a 35 minute drive away from the gym, I find this close to impossible to put into effect. My question is how counterpriductive is it in fact, to do weight traing on tempo day? Is there any way to minimize any negative effects by, say, splitting the workouts by a few hours?
Important to break up Hi-Intensity CNS work. A 3 day cycle of track, weights, tempo, while not ideal, may be an option to consider.
what about if the intensity and/or volume of the weights is low
what about if the weights and the speed are split, e.g. weights about four/five hours before the speed same day.
what about if the weights and the speed are split, e.g. weights about four/five hours before the speed same day.
thats fine…
alot of peole say they feel great doing that… possibly because there cns is fired up and ready to go…
Just make sure that the volume and intensity of your lifting isn’t too high if you decide to lift before you sprint. If it is too high, your legs will feel too fatigued and/or you will be at greater risk of sustaining an injury.
Preceding track with weights isn’t an option if you are lifting heavy. If you aren’t lifting heavy - why are you lifting in the first place?
gf_200 asks : “If you aren’t lifting heavy - why are you lifting in the first place?”
Neospeed responds : Why don’t you ask Mo Greene that? He does all of his lifting in the 50-70% range and always lifts before he sprints.
Neospeed - have u any accurate info on what Mo does ? -
I know we had a few unreliable HSI workouts posted b 4 but it would be interesting to see what he’s doing on a typical speed day weights / track .
Are you sure Neospeed?
I agree with Neospeed.
There is a hundred ways to train and there is no reason not to believe that Greene and others train that way. The point that you have to lift heavy is folly. As long as there is an overload with training, good nutrition, and a plan, then a personal best or peak performance will be achieved.
The fact that an athlete or coach may not chose to lift heavy (85-100%) means little. What matters is that the athlete does produce a personal best.
Personally, I would favour 80-90% running followed by weights or other strength work to achieve such a training effect in terms of running and lifting on the same day.
I know this worked for me in the past despite my mediocrity.
Given that it takes a muscle 48-72 hours to recover, then doing strength work and running on the same day 2-3 times a week does appear optimal.
I had one young soccer player do a 60m trial in 7.19 doing a few sprints and exercises 2 times a week. He then went and trained with a Commonwealth silver medalist (400m) 6 days a week and ran 12.5 with a hurricane several months later. This was always going to happen given that it was obvious he was being overtrained.
Neospeed,
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as Gloop states, do you actually know what the HSI group are doing?
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as reflected in the heading (“my two cents”) that is just my take on the role of strength training. I am aware of what the HSI group claim to be doing and it actually came to mind when writing that post but I just don’t believe that it optimises what weight training can potentially deliver.
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I agree. There is more than one way to skin a cat but there is also a best way…
Spartacus,
I agree 100% with your post
I agree that you don’t have to lift heavy. It has been well documented that strength can be developed through various means and methods (e.g Ben vs. Carl).
However, if you are going to weight train to supplement your sprints, then hi-intensity lifting makes sense, perfect sense…
gf,
You make perfect sense to me as well 
Spartacus, assuming we are talking about 100m sprinters, what would be the reason for running at “80-90%”? Seems to me that it is too slow to actually build your speed capacity and too fast to be considered recovery. That is, it will deplete your CNS reserves without providing the desired training effect.
xlr8
Gentlemen, ladies,
I am still not to clear on how I might manipulate my logistical problem to maximise/optimise results, viz. unless I drop a speed day to focus on heavy lifting, or go the “Mo Green way” and lift light before speed or maybe even tempo days, or maybe a blend of both options listed above. Thanks
robin,
So the problem is that you would like to provide at least 48 hours of CNS rest between high intensity training. The high intensity training elements include sprinting and heavy weightlifting.
If you can do it, I would do the sprinting first, then drive the 35 minutes to the gym. If you absolutely can’t do this, then I don’t think your best option is to lift on tempo days because you will never get CNS recovery.
However, if you can’t lift after running, how could you work a program to lift before? Isn’t it the same distance both ways
Perhaps you can work to develop strength using med balls and plyos and take one of your days to hit the weights at the gym? Is there a place to do tempo near the gym? Prehaps you could do a bit of short speed work there on your gym days? Can’t you find a closer gym?
xlr8
I used a routine of one day just weights two days track over the winter because my strength levels were low and I knew I could make quicker gains that way - but now my strength is back to a reasonable standard I’m happy to concentrate on track work .
However - I’m 38 with a limited time window on improvement and therefore a bit impatient
- if ur still young u can afford to make more gradual progressions as and when theyre best for you in the long term.
In response to gf_200 and xlr8.
As this debate has indicated, it is diiffult to balance the necessary running and strength training needed to ensure an effective training program. Like most sports, skill and power are the essential ingredients that are needed to move faster.
I am still learning, and will always be, despite 20 years of observing and reading.
As far as developing speed, I would agree that flat out running is necessary (95-98%). In other words, fast running that focuses on technique and relaxation.
Hence, it may well be that the intensity between the running and strength work, though carried out on the same day, may vary given that there should be 2-3 quality sessions a week.
In other words, one session may focus on fast running followed by moderate intensity exercises. With my athlete at certain stages of his training (Winter), I have him do 4-5 30-60m at around 95%. He then does moderate intensity exercises; that being one legged squats, one legged hypers, one legged calf raises and abs.
Another session during the week would focus on 80-85% running followed by a heavy weight session (80%, depending on how he feels, for 3-4 sets of 6), lunges, hypers with weights, leg curls and and calf raises.
Again, there are many ways to train and I will never claim to have a definitive answer to what training is best. All I try to do is to ensure that running and strength needs are addressed, and most importantly, that 48-72 hours lapse to recover between quality training. I also try to keep training as basic as possible.
I personally find that 2 quality sessions a week in terms of combining running and weights is optimal as I definitely need 3 days to recover. While I am now 41, this has always been the case for myself. In fact, when I made my best improvements, I was virtually only training twice a week for the 400m. All I did was 4-5 200-300m with 3 minutes rest at around 85% intensity, followed by 5 times 20 bounds on each leg up stadium stairs as fast as possible. I became more efficient in terms of speed endurance and improved my power from the bounding which always activates 100% of fibres. My 400m went down 1.5 seconds and my 200m 0.7, albeit from a ordinary standard.
I knew another athlete who ran 10.4 hand when he was 16 just running 80-85% twice a week and riding his bike. He ended up training with the national coach of Australia at one stage, did lots of weights, and went backwards. Obviously, CNS recovery is vital, an aspect sadly lacking on the part of many coaches and athletes. Hence, my point about the soccer player.
Again, the proof of whether a training program works can only be confirmed by results. Given that I always test an athlete once a month after an easy week, I am always in a position to either maintain or adjust my program.
Hi…
I have similar problems myself. As I’m not a professional athlete (yet!), I have to work from 8 - 4.
On Monday/Wednesday/Friday I wake up at 6 o’clock to do weight training and in the evening I do my track work. The problem is that after heavy weight training in the morning my legs often feel fatigued when I’m about to run fast.
Of course it would be wiser to hit the track in the morning, but it’s just impossible especially during winters, because the closest indoor track is about 30 miles from here.
So in this case would it be wiser to do like this:
Day 1: Upper body weights / Speed
Day 2: Lower body weights / Tempo
Day 3: Speed
Day 4: Lower body weights / Tempo
Day 5: Upper body weights / Speed
Day 6: Tempo
or like this:
Day 1: Upper body weights / Speed
Day 2: Lower body weights / Tempo
Day 3: Tempo
Day 4: Upper body weights / Speed
Day 5: Lower body weights / Tempo
Day 6: Speed
Cheetah,
can you get to a gym after your track work in the evening? I think you have answered your own question by stating:
"The problem is that after heavy weight training in the morning my legs often feel fatigued when I’m about to run fast. "
Priorities, Priorities, Priorities!