[b]Taken from Modern Trends in Strength Training Volume 1
Principle 5: THe number of sets is the key loading norm in controlling overtraining.
Example
Mon …225x6; 225x5; 225x4; 225x4 end
SAt …230x6; 230x3 end[/b]
I see so many problems with this ‘principle’. Firstly, if the session on monday was so intense that it could not be replicated five days later then it was probably too intense. Additionally, by reducing the volume of the second session so dramatically TUT may be reduced below that necessary to sustain present strength levels. If this ‘critical drop’ off occurs so early and so markedly I would again contend that intensity is too high.
CP states, ‘The body is very well equipped to not overtrain by intensity, it will just not lift the weight’. Research and practical experience however shows otherwise - intensity is a much more powerful variable than volume (no laboratory study has been able to ellicit a true overtraining response using high volume). If a lifter trains to maximum (read failure) even with higher repetitions, where absolute intensity is lowered, the resultant fatigue will likely detract from subsequent training sessions (in addition to later exercises or sets in the same workout).
Principle 10: Don’t perform low reps too frequently
Here old CP makes an elementary mistake. Low reps do not necessarily imply high intensity.
Lets use his other principles against him!
Principle 3: The development of maximal strength is best accomplished by using 70 - 100% of maximum
Actually this percentage range is rather conservative. Other strength experts suggest >75% or even >80%. Lets assume for arguements sake that the average trainer can perform 6 reps with an 80% load, the greatest number of reps that he should then perform is 4 or 5 (allowing a small buffer).
Principle 16: THe fibre composition of the athlete dictates the number of reps
An athlete blessed with a high percentage of FT fibres (sprinters!) will have a particularly steep rep : percentage max. graph - they may only be able to perform 3 reps at 80%. Again, allowing for a buffer this restricts the athlete to only doubles or singles.
Principle 18: Coordination requirements of the exercise dictate the number of reps
Here CP acknowledges that when performing Olympic lifts reps are usually restricted to 3 and below. Weightlifters train to maximise their performance in single efforts. Appropriate training may enable a lifter to move repetition maximums closer to absolute maximum but this may negatively effect motor pathways and hence actually decrease that absolute maximum. Additionally, the stabilizing muscles such as the spinal erectors and rhomboids fatigue prior to the prime movers hence increasing risk of injury with high reps (this applies equally to squat and deadlift related exercises).
A few thoughts:
No 16: From my experience, Sprinters often have a higher than average rep capacity at 80%, perhaps due to their highly developed special endurance capacities (the capacity to recruit either the highest possible number of fibres at once, or maximized exposure of fibres in relays at sub-maximal loads.
As a pyramid example:
Ben- Bench Press 2x 450
4x(5x405)
2x(10x365)
Squat 2x(6x600)
We never tested for max squat but, certainly, Ben couldn’t squat 750!
Overtraining is ALWAYS possible and is NOT self-limiting, affecting factors beyond the weightroom, which are usually more important.
I agree that you should never be fried from a weight session 5 days later.
Look, poliquin is making generalizations under the name “principals”, as with all generalizations you can usually find a scenario that clashes with the generalization.
You’ve missed the essence of principal 5. He is saying that the monday session WAS too intense, and it is manifested by the 3 rep drop off from the first set to the second set on saturday. Therefore, since you haven’t recovered from the workout, instead of reducing the weight and doing volume that isn’t going to get you anywhere, end the exercise. Reread this principal, you’ve taken what he said in a skewed manner.
You’re nitpicking on principal 10, high intensity was assumed in this statement.
On principal 3, he provides a range which is best for developing maximal strength. Because other authors have suggested a SUBSET of this intensity spread is optimal for enhancing strength does NOT mean that he is wrong by any means.
I’m not sure what you’re saying on your commentary of principal 16, poliquin seems to say the same thing you are, that is pick a percentage of the 1 rep max (say 80%) and the fiber type of the athlete will dictate how many reps can be done with this percentage.
Poliquin is an intellegent guy who is incredibly well versed in all sorts of training journals that most of us don’t have access to, or even the ability to read. Don’t think that he would make elementry mistakes like you’ve pointed out. He has trained a lot of athletes and is just pointing out generalizations that he has noticed over the years.
I know that there are reasons in sprinting circles for a certain lack of respect for Poliquin, due to things which he may or may not have said regarding sprint training, or pre-race protocols.
But I think that the keyword in Vash´s post was nitpicking. David, I am not a blind Poliquin fan, but I respect him in many ways and try to filter out what I need. He is very knowledgeable, as Vash has pointed out. He has forgotten more about strength training than many know. I have learned tons from him, and he has helped many athletes get bigger and stronger. I hope that I can learn more from him.
Does he have faults? Who doesn´t? But if you really have a problem with him, send him an email. He has a web site. If I disagree with Charlie, or John Davies, or Christian T, or whoever, I hope that I can take the issue up with the source, and not bash him through a forum that he may not visit.
David, you are very knowledgeable in strength training. I wish you much success as an athlete and coach. Don´t waste your time bashing guys like Poliquin and Chris T unless you really believe that you are being ultimately constructive. Negative energy always finds its way back to the source. These guys have reached a certain degree of success. Why? What can we learn from them? What can we disgard?
I have read that you have ambitions as a coach. Can you learn about the business side of things from CP and CT? Be positive - getting bent out of shape over someone else´s flaws will not improve you as a coach.
I have in the past, done this as well. Seeing coaches in national team positions who were not respected by many athletes and who were not really very competent. But I have learned obsessing over others does not help me get better. How did they get there? What can I learn? What mistakes have they made that I can avoid? But I CANNOT build myself up by trying to knock others down.
If this got a bit preachy, what can I say? I just think you have too much going for you to waste time and energy on negative aspects. Peace.
Poliquin is an intellegent guy who is incredibly well versed in all sorts of training journals that most of us don’t have access to, or even the ability to read. Don’t think that he would make elementry mistakes like you’ve pointed out. He has trained a lot of athletes and is just pointing out generalizations that he has noticed over the years.
What about the sprinter mass tables?
Give credit to TUT and other strength training information but I am tired of the followers. CP is a strength coach who has some good information. Not all of it is perfect but I have used some of it in the past.
I think there are some interesting differences which can be discussed without getting into any slamming. For instance, my point about the strength pyramid differences of a sprinter vs a weightlifter (where CPs concept would clearly be correct), and the point about the self-limiting intensity aspects of weightlifting which cannot be extrapolated across the sporting continuum. I don’t think this is unreasonable and this is not a slam on Charles’ work. I’ve dealt with a number of football and hockey players who’ve worked with him and have been very happy with their results.
Charlie, you’ve worked with sprinters before? I jest, I appreciated your post and do not doubt the validity of what you’ve said. I dislike reiterating myself, but sprinters could be the exception to the generalizaiton.
Carson, I agree there is a lack of respect for poliquin due to the comments he made on Ben using a near 1RM in the deadlift prior to sprinting events in a t-mag.com column.
Yes, sprinters would be an exception- but Charles used them as the example- this is wrong and cannot be allowed to pass without comment. Additionally, I publish as well and it is unreasonable to imagine that every discussion of my work or arguement about my conclusions take place only on my forum.
I agree that if statements are made which are false, they can and should be refuted, and not only where they are published or read. Charles Poliquin seems to have made a few claims at times which are not well founded.
But as Vash posted, they were generalizations to a degree.
To quote Vash: Look, poliquin is making generalizations under the name “principals”, as with all generalizations you can usually find a scenario that clashes with the generalization. End quote.
Charlie´s comments are valid, as are David´s to a point. I thought that the points were taken a bit too far by David and maybe out of context.
I was just reminded of the posts that took place a while back between David and Christian T, and perhaps I unjustly saw David as attacking CP as another successful strength coach. If I was wrong, I apologize. I really thought that David was writing with a chip on his shoulder, and it is in the long run not good for him as he progresses.
I wasn´t looking for a scrap, David - by the way, I have enjoyed many of your posts!
Charlie I agree with you on the pyramid. This is likely to occur in most sprinters. I found though with myself. I cant do many reps. Yet I can hit high weights. Seriously Im not joking. Why would that be and how do I fix it. Or do I need to fix it at all?
I’ve found the same with one athlete I’ve worked with. He can bench 335 but can only do 4 maybe 5 reps with 270, which would be around 80% of his max. I was wondering if something was lacking in him when I read Charlie’s statement " Sprinters often have a higher than average rep capacity at 80%, …". I was thinking, is it a lack of conditioning or maybe he is more white fiber.
Tim - have you had problems with speed endurance / correlation between ur 60m / 100m / 200m times -
I seem to remember ur 60m times were your strong area - correct me if I’m wrong -
I was just wondering whether it would tie in at all with the rep number thing , and whether the rep range different sprinters feel comfortable with are an indication of , or a cause of their individual strengths / weaknesses
