yea i know what hz is. as long as the hz is faster than your muscles can twitch, what’s the additional benefit above that threshold?
I find physical therapists, Doctors are always conservative in their approach to avoid lawsuits. Zatsiorky “Science and Practice of Strength Training” cites on pg 169 the most important feature is >1500 Hz. This tends to scare people but it is what the original research is based off. Not to say you can’t reap benefits with 100 Hz - I think of it like dynamic squats with submax poundage vs. Squats with max intensity (no CNS detriment with EMS). Supertraining by Siff also dicusses this on pg 207. I use lower Hz and Tens as well for varienty and restoration as well but R Stim should be the focus.
wsmith, have you ever used an ARP (500 contractions per second), so you could perhaps give us some comparison effects/benefits as compared to the R stim model? I’m pretty interested.
hey Stef, I have not used ARP, I will say 2500 Hz is pretty hard to handle so a high-frequency carrier signal at 10,000 cycles per second would probably hurt even worse. If someone can stand it, it prob disinhibits the golgi mechanism. From what I have heard about it the bio-electrical current patented by ARP may reduce the pain but I don’t know. I haven’t seen any definitive studies on ARP but if anyone know more I’d love to hear about it. How much are these?
Stef, you can not compare ARP with other EMS, because is totally different for his pulse/current, applications, results.
Just a macroscopic difference is the muscles attitude to move during high current stimulation (with ARP) vs common tetanic muscles contraction of others EMS.
But, this fact doesn’t mean that other EMS or electric device are outdated.
ARP first is a training/recovery system, then a device.
I guess I was hoping for some kind of comparision because EMS is so so so much more affordable :o
Of course I understand what you mean with the above.
What do you think in response to what wsmith31 said in the “question about isos” thread about replacing isos with EMS, for time and performance efficiency?
(sorry if I’m jumping around threads…)
I don’t agree, because extreme iso are an extreme slow eccentric work, EMS do only concentric work, where is the benefit of eccentric?
EMS can be useful for PIR reaction, but it’s totally different from extreme iso effects!
I think the benefit of the eccentric is gained from EMS in the muscles stretched position. I always use EMS with the muscle stretched (ex.hams/and touching toes) and I get a greater benefit. I like Isos but never use them anymore.
Generally muscle stimulation during classic EMS work is done with muscles in shorten position, otherwise you can risk injury.
If you use EMS in stretching position probably you can not use high amperage on the device and this is can be a limit, just my opinion.
Probably work first EMS for PIR and then do Iso can be a better solution.
i agree. Also the high freq htz can be background allowing movement or interrupted into pulse trains (30 to 120 PTs per sec for example) to create the classic EMS contractions.
Hi Charlie, I read in your Training for Speed book you have your athletes apply EMS on th epost chain with legs stretched. Do you reccomend allowing th emuscles to shorten? I have tried both ways and found I got a much more intense contraction in a stretched state. I still “crank it up” as you reccomend and have not had any injuries. What do you think of russian stim?
the legs are straight and not stretched or shortened. In order to be stretched at full intensity, you’d need to be strapped down- is this what you’re doing? Most of the supposed russian stims were uncomfortable to use at the intensities required to get a maximal contraction. The original stims sold by the old Soviet Union were a shambles and broke down in a few weeks of use.
i’m not sold on the claim of superior stim of FT fibre. ALL stims fire the FT fibres first because the current travels first down the biggest pathways with the least electrical resistance. That’s why the best sprinters need less current to get maximal contractions vs the average ones.
I used R Stim with a passive stretch, meaning just attempting to keep the limb of the working muscle as straight as possible, sometimes with hams i elevate my legs. I’ve noticed a huge difference if quality with 2500 hz as opposed to the 140 hz that is standard on the machine i have. I do not anchor anything down. I turn up the channel output to a point where it begins to burn slightly and then blast the R stim. For Tens and reg EMS I don’t pay attention to the limb positioning. I follow your 10x10(~50 sec protocol) and it has worked great. Why the move away from the Kotz studies, besides comfort level?It it better to max out reg 140 hz intensities than to utilize the 2500 hz? I use as much current as I can stand.
The intensity of the feeling has much to do with the wave form and whether there’s a spike limiter (square wave etc) Comfort level allows you to get the maximum contraction.
Hello all,
I’ve taken a look and found a few machines with the required rest times.
EMS U-Stim with 12 modes ($105):
http://www.healiohealth.com/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=johmlohno
EMS 7000 TX-1311 with 3 modes ($65):
http://www.ib3health.com/products/TensandEMS/ME/EMS7000.shtml
Twin Stim TENS / EMS combo unit with 7 modes ($109):
http://www.medword.com/MedwordStore/PCP/digital_tens_ems.html
I have a few questions also.
-
Is 80 mA to 100 mA enough power?
-
Has anyone tried using “bifurcating wires” that let you split the signal to let you use 4 pads on each channel? http://www.medword.com/MedwordStore/PCP/accessories.html
2 a)Would this lower the amperage too much and result in insufficient stimulation? The good
- In reality, is a true 4 channel unit a necessity? The only reasonably priced one I could find has only 30 seconds of relaxation time. Annoying! http://www.medword.com/MedwordStore/PCP/tens_ems_plus.html
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
T
What does everybody think about the new EMS7500 2ND EDITION ?
Looks like the same as the original. The only real difference/benefit I see is the “New Stronger 100mA output”. 100 vs 80
Charlie,
I have looked for hours now for the article on EMS that you stated was in the archives, but I must be brain dead, cant find it.
I see there is alot of talk and discrepancy concerning the EMS devices…I’ve read the stuff written by Zatsiorsky and it looks solid – except for the part where he says EMS should be painless when done properly,guess he never tried it?!
Concerning the devices themselves…I’ve looked at many over the last few days - Cefar MYO4, EMS 2000, EMS 7500,Vital Stim EMS 4000/4000R(russian),Compex MI Sport, Compex Performance,Cefar MYO XT etc…
My questions are: is it essential to have a machine that has 2500hz (as stated by Zatsiorsky) or are the 80hz-120hz going to bring the same results?If the 2500hz is just a matter of pain, then darnit, I’ll just bite down on something…as long as its doing the job!!
2nd)the 2500hz (russian) devices have a ramp time starting at 3seconds instead of the =/<1second as do the other devices;how important is this?
3rd)What about the EMS7500 compared to the vastly more expensive devices (Cefar/Compex)?How do they compare?
If someone could just pick the device for me and I’ll go out and spend the darn money that would be great…my head is about to explode from all the various info I’ve been trying to get on EMS! I understand the Cefar/Compex units have a “explosive strength” preset, but are they strong enough?!
Sorry about all the questions…all help is greatly appreciated!
quick question 
sorry for hacking
I noticed that above 50 Hertz of ems rate, my skin is getting fried and the feeling of electricity rather than contraction takes over.
Is this normal ? I would really like to work at 100-150 hertz like it says on the articles but I just can’t… whats going on ? Why does it happen ?
Wish I could help, but you told me not to respond to any of your questions. :mad: