Would heavy clean/snatch pulls be sufficient to take the place of doing clean/snatch grip deadlifts?

yes, but have u still got a limit force exercise in there somewhere such as squats?

Yes, but even with those I lean towards lighter load w/ speed(80-85%).

Well you can use much heavier wieghts in pulls than you can with cleans/snatches

Yes I kno, I was suggesting those grips because they force you to go down deeper brining the hamstrings into the movement more.

You need to be clear why you are performing any exercise - what are you trying to achieve: Strength or Power. With the snatch grip you will be recruiting the Gluts and hamstrings to a greater extent than a clean grip deadlift.

Power, because I play football the idea is to express as much strength as quickly as possible and the glutes and hamstrings have a large part in “firing out of the hole” as well as acc, top speed, agility etc…

Another question is presented, are pulls supposed to be heavy like a deadlift, or light in an effort to move with speed, even though when you attempt to move something as fast as possible you recruit fibers and motor units in the way that light lifting would do?

As well is it not the high speed pull portion of olympic lifts that creates the explosiveness in olympic athletes? Because there are several powerlifters with the same body composition as super heavy weight oly lifters, but cannot perform the sprint times nor vert tests with even close to equal numbers even though they can full squat nearly 1000lbs. so i am also wondering if it is the pulling portion and not the catching and performing a full front/oh squat is the part that develops the unbelievable explosion these athletes have. And if thats true couldnt pwr versions of the exercises be more beneficial to performance as the bar has to be accellerated more because it has to travel a farther distance because there is no dropping under the bar?

Pulls are usually done around the same loads as 1RM of a clean or slightly more say 20%. Speed and form is still essential.

Olylifters do pulls, the full lifts and the power versions, plus squats of course. Don’t forget jerks as well which are more or less like jumping with a heavy weight.

They all contribute - I don’t think you can single out just a single aspect.
Also I think olylifters usually require people who are fast and athletic.
So genetics come into as well, since slow people don’t do very well in weightlifting :slight_smile:

Yes i understand, but high amounts of fast twitch and motor units are required for both powerlifting and oly lifting, so I am wondering what the difference is there, and i think its the explosive pull. I mean the first time i squatted i did ok, but i was told my power clean was exceptional for a first time doing it. As well i have good sprinting speed and a good vertical leap, so i think the correlation is with the explosive pull. Then again i could be wrong

What I was trying to get at is that some people can be strong but not necessarily be all that “athletic” :slight_smile:

I don’t think fiber % and fiber count is the main factor in explosiveness. I think the CNS speeds/reflexes etc play a far greater roll.
That is why olylifters can’t lift as much weight as they get older, but powerlifters can continue to get stronger well into the 40-50s etc

So basically oly lifters can recruit motor units faster as a result of their cns

I think it helps a lot, the ability to turn on fibers very quickly.
My theory is, that strength training can improve the number of fibers you are able to turn on, as well as the size (thus strength), but the speed you can fire them is largely genetic. The faster they fire, the more potential energy you are able to use from the stretch shortening cycle etc.

I’m going to ramble a bit on my own beliefs -:slight_smile:

You know you have some people who are born with large numbers of fibers, a high % of fast twitch and fast effecient CNS. These are what you would called genetic freaks and the natural born athletes :slight_smile:
People who are naturally fast, explosive and strong or gain strength very quickly.

I on the other hand, have more even fiber distribution, maybe slightly weighted on the fast side, since endurance is not my forte (I have tried cross country running in highschool and got beaten by fat guys :smiley: )
, and average fiber counts (except in my legs :slight_smile: )
I used to think I was more a large % fast twitch guy, but increasingly I’m beginning to doubt that.

One thing I do have is a pretty fast CNS. I was never was that good at sports in highschool because I was weak, but I had fast reflexes and fast hand speed - things don’t require much strength. I did have a 28inch vertical jump back then without any training, but that was because I was so light :smiley:
Wasn’t too good at sprinting though.
But once I gained some strength, my level of explosiveness improved dramaticly, thanks to fact my CNS is above average in speed.

It’s something you either have or you don’t I guess. Of course there are degrees of this, but I see some people, and you can just tell that no matter how much or how these people train, they would not develop into an “explosive” or “fast” person, even though these people are pretty strong or could get much stronger.

There seems to be a threshold, if your at a certain CNS speed level, you can improve with the right training. If your below a certain cutoff point, you will never get much improvement in explosiveness, because you just don’t have the mechanisms to bridge the gap to say the low end side of stretch shortening cycle.
Maybe it’s a personality type or attitude that interelates into this as well?
Is it possible to be slow twitch and have a super fast CNS?

My 2 cents - no studies to back up this :stuck_out_tongue:

Can you please go into a little more detail on what kinds of tests you gave yourself , or at least experiences you had, that helped you to determine this?

Again, agree with Colin. See Strength and Power thread for an example of how pulls could be included in a program.

ESD! See ‘Strength and Power’ thread.

I haven’t done any specifc tests per se, but you get hints here and there as you progress through life, play and training.

I dabbled in some boxing stuff when in highschool, mainly sparring and bag work. And I had pretty damn fast punches, not much strength, but a lot of speed. I could do double jabs - one to the head, and then body in a blink of an eye. Nobody else could do that - another hint :slight_smile:

I think reflexes and hand speed is a sure sign of someone’s CNS speed. Strength doesn’t come into things like this.

Thanks for the replies Colin and David.

For someone not skilled enough in O lifts to make the judgement would you say that naturally having a good vertical might be a sign?

Louie Simmons (of Westside Barbell fame) has said, show me someone who is fast and I will make them strong.