Plan for 2005 indoor season

Hey guys,

i just recently left my training group to start a short to long program for 200/400m. My PRs are 200m- 24.0 and 400m- 51.9 this year after 1 solid year in training for 400m (im 6ft 1 and 170 ish pounds btw). Ive decided to leave my training group as ive been following a long-short program which ended up as a long-even longer schedule. Anyway…i shall stop boring you and get on. My basic set up is as follows (with thanks to 400stud for helping me with the ideas);

GPP- 8 weeks (im injured at the mo so id thought id make this long to regain a solid base)

Monday- Acceleration development- 420m, 230m (3 pt start), 320m (crouched start)
-plyometrics- standing long jump- 2
3, standing triple jump-23, bounding-320m (will be introduced after 4th week)
-weights- bench, squat, cleans- 38 plus seated rows and military press- 212

Tuesday-ex. Tempo- 100+200+300+200+++100+200+300+200+++200m+300m (+=45 secs rest)

  • GS circuit- push ups,free squats, sit ups- 5 sets of 20
  • Could anyone recommend any med ball work that i can do without a partner?

Wednesday- Int. tempo- 300m3(with 2mins rest in 45-47 secs), 5mins rest, then 4200m (with walk around recovery in 30-32)
-Weights- Hang cleans, Push press,front squats- 38, plus dumbell press and lat pulls-212

Thursday- ex.tempo- 500+300+200+++500+300+200
-GS circuit

Friday- Hills- 680m hills, 6 mins recovery (not sure of this session, could anybody recommend rest periods and volume??)
-Plyos- as monday
-Weights- Hang snatch, bench press, squats- 3
8, plus rows and a press-2*12

Saturday- Extended warm up or 30mins of general activity and mobility
*every CNS session is preceded by 3 laps jog, stretching,warm up drills and A&B drills.

For SPP i will include split runs, maxv, short hills etc…(will plan in more detail when ive good a good base).

Ok…any recommendations?? This is my first attempt at a charlie-esque program and am not really sure what times to aim for.

Thanks :slight_smile:

Doesn’t look too bad. The only thing I can recommend is keeping the auxillary lifts (row and press) in the 8-10 rep range.

Man, I hope the split from your training group was on good terms. Not good to burn all your bridges…

Do you have a coach with you now? Training alone? There was a thread a while back on the necessity of a training partner for an athlete. While it is debatable whether an athlete needs a training partner or group, no athlete can make it completely on their own.

Sorry to be so disparaging and negative but something I hope you have considered. Good Luck with it.

Yeah…i totally understand the need for a group around you. However, even with my coach i was always running alone as no one else was training for 400m. I havnt burnt any bridges as im injured at the moment and everytime i try to return with my coach i get re injured and things start flaring up again so he understands me not being there for a while (however, he doesnt know that im planning to train alone yet :frowning: ). Its not like there are any decent groups around here within travelling distance either so it looks like it will just be me (and my dad timing/observing from time to time) until a solution presents itself.

400 stud- Yeah, ill knock the rows and presses down to 8-10 region and the oly lifts to 5-6. One question about weights, when i progress out of the accumulation into max strength, the weights will be in the region of 3-5 reps but are these all at 100% to failure or is something held back? what about during pre comp and comp etc…?

Also, is the tempo session on thurs ok or should i shorten the reps? Anyone got any med ball routines i can do alone?

Thanks for the replies!!

I can answer that! — in Max strength you are going to build up to a new 1rm - that by definition will be your only 100%+ lift… the weights will be in region of 3-5 reps and sets any where from 2-5 keep the intensity at 80% plus… no more than 3 weeks at 90%+… just some of the standard guidelines

Standard Guidelines for who?


more or less — those are what I can gather from personal experience, DavidW’s article, and

Hey guys,

thanks for the replies.

G_f 200s post has kinda got me thinking whether i should actually leave my group or not for fear of having to motivate and train myself. Has anyone got any opinions on self training? My reason for wanting to leave is basically the fact that the training principles in my group seemed backwards…for instance we were supposed to be on a long to short schedule and, following the winter base training, planning seemed to go out the window, with reps actually getting longer and rest shorter, with the focus during the run up to competitons being on shorter rest periods and extended periods of hard work often ending in vomiting. An example schedule of in season work would be something like;

Monday- OFF
Tuesday- 5450m w/ 5mins rest
Thursday- 12-15
200m with 1-3 mins rest in 27-29
Friday- Weights- reps of 5,4,3,2,1 on cleans, deads, bench and squats
Sat- OFf
Sunday- “Speed”- 120-150m6 or 4300 w/5-10 min recoveries

However, even with such an approach to 400m training, I improved from 55 to 51.9 in 1 year. As GF 200 implied, results are better with the motivation of a coach and other athletes.

I am basically torn between following a scientifically sound schedule alone or a lesser schedule with the support of a coach and athletes.

I would really appreciate advice on this topic, this is a decision that will affect my entire running career.

Thanks :slight_smile:

It most certainly will affect your entire running career, so my advice to you is to go with your gut instinct. You can never go wrong there.

When I decided to train myself, I knew it was becuase I knew HOW to train myself. My HS coaches had an approach similar to…torture, involving ridiculous sessions just about everyday and so much volume that by the middle of the season, most of the kids were burned out. I knew that after a 5 week summer season following my Jr. year when I improved my 400m by one second and my 200m by .6 seconds, that I really was my best coach – at least for now.

I started to regret the decision after the team started doing well, but then I realized that I really did make the best decision for me, even if I didn’t reach the goals I had set to myself. I made improvements all season until…I went against my gut and decided to join a local track club. Within 5 weeks they had me running 1 second slower in the 400m and I also ran the slowest 200m I’ve ran in 2 years after joining them. Again, this made me realize the mistake I made in going against my intuition.

So, basically, when I’m trying to say is that you really do need to go with your gut, and whatever you do, don’t doubt it later. Only you know what’s best for you. If you like the improvements you’re making on the team, stick with it. If you want to venture out and see just how well you can do by yourself, go for it. Hell, you can train alone for one year just to try it out and if it doesn’t work, rejoin the team.

So, whatever you do, make sure you’re confident the whole way and I wish you luck in your decision.

You obviously have talent, and let me just tell you that as someone who has to self train, I’d personally love to be around other athletes, and have some one to coach me. I think the plan you’ve laid out for the indoor season would yield benefits, and I think that forums like this are very important too. What I’m saying is having had both experiences, as long as you get out there and do it, it just becomes a matter of preference. Why not try on your own? You could always go back to the club, and I would if I was having trouble making my plan or just plain prefered the atmosphere.

Either way - let us know what you do, as I’m eagerly anticipating following it

just wanna say thanks for the advice guys!! Basically im thinking that the fact that ive been injured for most of the season, and everytime i have returned from injury i have reinjured myself pretty quickly is trying to tell me to change- a sign if you will. What im proposing to do is start in september on my own through to the indoors in february and march. I will do a complete GPP, SPP, Pre comp and comp (although i wont taper for indoor performance) and see how it goes. Ifthere is an improvement (or i can get back to similar shape) i will stick with it. I know i have loads to learn about this sort of schedule and it will be a massive change for me to commit to something with low volume and high quality but im gonna give it my best.

Thanks again for the advice

BTW, has anyone got any links for good posts on 400m training and how to set up pre comp/comp schedules??

Check out 400stud’s steps to success — it’s good stuff

I, like an idiot, had my journal deleted, so if you need any help or have any specific questions, feel free to ask. Or, if you want, I have my journal on my computer (not going to post it), so e-mail me if you would like to look at it.

A few quick thoughts…

Is a compromise possible? Breakway for certain sessions you feel are imperative and you are not doing presently, while falling in with the group for others? Is there another triaining group/ coach in your area you could consult with? Could you travel, perhaps for the weekends, to train with another group - damage limitation with 2 supervised sessions and 1 session alone during the week?

In the words of MJ “there is always a solution”. Be careful you choose wisely…

Yeah, i can see where compromise would be a good option, but let me put it in perspective. I will turn up to training on a tuesday and thursday and ill ask for the session and sometimes it will be “i need to get some speed into your legs” so ill be given 3150, 3120, 3*60 with 5 mins rec or sometimes it will be “we need to get some lactic acid going” so well go down the beach and do dune work till vomit point so im not exactly in the position where i can plan anything in the future on my own, its very much an ad hoc approach.

There are also no real quality groups within an hours drive of where i am so that aint really an option either.

The real problem is that my coach and I are quite close, he really does put himself out to help his athletes and has had good results with one athlete recently…almost at 10.9 standard which i cant really understand considering the amount of volume he puts him through for a 100m guy. The point is that there are other athletes in the same situation as me who are getting awesome results leading me to think of sticking with it.

Anyway, excuse my whining…i should feel lucky for even being able to run! Ron Clarke was training one day on the beach, concerned about breaking the world 10,000m record when he saw some children throwing a ball around enjoying themselves. Beside them he saw a pile of collapsable wheelchairs and suddenly the world record seemed no longer important (Just something i read in athletics weekly). My point is that there are more important things, Im gonna stop beating myself up about this issue and just try to enjoy my athletics whatever happens. Still, my indecisiveness doesnt really help!!

Thanks for the replies, they are really helpin me out!

From the sounds of your old program you were doing a pretty good half mile program. The distances were right, the speeds were about right, heck even the recovery times weren’t off by much. The only problem is that there was no long aerobic running. Your tendons/ligaments were never given a chance to gain a lot of endurance, so the longer repeats caused some problems, AKA injuries! Personally from your times, 24 and 51.9 I wouldn’t rule out the 800, with the proper program you could probably slap down a 1:55 or a 1:54. however, with the proper sprint program you could probably drop time off your 200 and hence, your 400 time. Don’t just toss out the 800 you could be really good at it… Unless, of course, you REALLY don’t want to do it… In which case, I won’t judge you :stuck_out_tongue: Only belittle you :smiley:

here’s some websites I liked

Lactic Acid Information
400m Page

Thanks palmtag… I had actually considered 800/400 combo when i saw some other guys have success with this approach. My coach also thought it was a good idea due to my endurance being better than my speed etc…
He gave me a schedule for winter for 400m/800m;

Monday- 3mile aerobic run
Tuesday- weights- reps of around 8
Wednesday- Off
Friday- 40 min aerobic run
Saturday- Off
Sunday- Track session- eg…5500, 12200 or 33300 walkround recoveries

Then, in competition build up;

Monday-aerobic run- 30-40 mins
Tuesday-Track- 6450m-1500m pace
Thursday-track- 12
200 (1-3 mins rest) or 5350 (5-8 mins)-800m pace
Friday-Weights- max strength
120-150(5 rest) or 4*300 (10mins)-400m pace

what do you think palmtag? Could i add in some speed/power work somewhere? This could be the compromise that allows me to stay with my group!! :smiley:

Hmm… It’s an intersting program you’ve put together, here.
However, my first beef, before I get into technicals about the workouts, is that 6-7 days a week of training after the GPP is a much better way to get the most out of your week. During your GPP I suggest starting from 4 days a week and in 2-3 week intervals ease your way up to training 7 days a week. 6 is better than 5 days, and 7 is better than 6. (DUH!)

Now for your program. I’m assuming that you’re going to want the 400m being your main event. However, the 800 isn’t an event that you’ve done before, so your potential, as of yet, is an unknown. So we’ll need to put together a program that will put you in a position, that come your precomp phase, you’ll be able to decide Yes:400 or Yes:800 and be able to tailor the rest of your season to your particular event.

Is where you live flat? Hills are REALLY good… Hilly long runs, are good too.
Hills allow you to get more bang for your mile.


Sunday- Fartleck(30 on 2:00off)20-35mins/Hilly run 30-45mins
Monday- Hills… 2x8, then 3x8, then 4x8 etc. Jog down recovery between each hill climb, and walkdown and about 2 min recovery between sets. — Then 15-20min run.
Tuesday- weights- reps of around 8-then 20min run
Wednesday- Off
Thursday- Track Session 6x200 50m jog/walk recovery or 4x400 100m jog/walk recovery. Do 200’s at about 800m pace, but don’t stress if the times aren’t dead on. The 400’s should be at about 1500(1600) meter pace, but again don’t worry about time.
Friday- Weights-then 20min run
Saturday- Off

Here’s the two different precomp I had envisioned for whichever your event you decide to do.

Precomp 800
Sunday: 40 min long run.
Monday: 4x100 or 5x150 or 6x200 at 800 RP with 30 secs recovery
Tuesday: Light Hills then 6-10 easy 100m strides then 20 min run
Wedsnday 600+400+300+200+100 (increase speed as you drop distance finish at faster than 800 pace… or try to :smiley: )
Thursday:30 min fartleck/hilly run
Friday 6x400 60sec recov. Faster than 1500pace by about 4 seconds

Precomp 400
Didn’t finish this, will come back to it later*
Tuesday: Speed (30’s flying and standing start. No more than 6 total. 3-5 min rest between each) Then Max Str weights
Wedsnday: Long Track 5x200 or 3x300 or 2x400 (All at 800 race pace with 30(200)/45(300)/60(400) secs recovery)
Thursday:Speed endurance 5x100 or 4x150 or 3x200 (All a little over 400 race pace. With 2/3/4 mins recovery between each)
Friday: Max str
Saturday Off

Cool, thanks palmtag

Btw, ive also ordered 800/1500 by roger bannister and training for distance runners by coe…might help me with the longer stuff that im not sure about