There is only so much you can do for someone -
FACT - The fastest men and women (both in athletics and team sports) in the world use weight and strength training to develop and improve their speed and athletic performance.
If someone doesn’t want to accept that - what else can you do?
Have you read CFTS?
Oh, No I haven’t…
If they maintained the same strength levels, then maybe…
FACT - The fastest men and women (both in athletics and team sports) in the world use weight and strength training to develop and improve their speed and athletic performance.
If someone doesn’t want to accept that - what else can you do?
But who is the World’s No.1 sprinter (Fastest man on Earth today) according to the IAAF. Does he know something we don’t. I agree with you that every man and his dog use weights, but then again, they ain’t the fastest man on earth neither running sub 10’s for the 100. I mean if I went to the gym and saw a guy squatting and benching hard and he was bragging how quick he was, my reply would be, “Yeah!, but Kim Collins would leave your ass hanging out to dry, and the only weight he lifts is the gold medals he puts around his neck for winning 100m sprints”.
If he won the 100m in Paris, it proves he was the most powerful man in the race, but his physique isn’t brought across that way. He was the only guy in the race with absolutley no hypertrophy at all up top or down below, and won. This surely means he had the best power output to weight ratio than all them guys who lift weights and you guys reccommend to me, you must lift no matter what.
Would I want to be as quick as Kim Collins when I’m playing soccer who seems to be able to accelerate his mass alot quicker than a Dwain Chambers… I know who I would pick every time.
Yes Kim Collins won the worlds, and I applaud him for that, but what are his PB’s, and you keep talking about Dwain Chambers whos top times are way better than Kim Collins and neural efficiency as far as strength and power only goes to a certain extent to where added mass is required, so no they could not maintain or improve their strength levels if they dropped body weight. Also they have run the fastest times in history, let kim collins dip into the low 9.8’s repeatedly, then you can talk about how hes the greatest, everyone can be on or off for a season, consistently breaking the barrier is whats important, and the people you are suggesting do it wrong have consistently run much faster times than Collins and possess to best times in history. Great that hes having a good season, but you cannot base your ideals off of one good season.
Well I would strongly reccomend reading the CFTS and Speed Trap and if you can appreciate the training concepts there perhaps you might understand more the methodology, protocols and use of strength and weight training.
BUT more importantly you will see the INTEGRATION of the various concepts such as Tempo training and recovery with strength training - which I think you are missing as important factors in speed training especially for team sports.
This also is part of the reason everyone here is in disagreement with you - read and understand the concepts and THEN argue for cycling - if you can do that I think we will be able to have a more constructive and beneficial debate.
eh… T-Mont ? no ?
Well then he must 'n be very strong he hasn’t had too many to lift! 
(joke)
Kim ran a very good race - and as an athlete I like the guy -
However - he did win a relatively slow race and just because one runner who apparently doesn’t lift wins a major race doesn’t mean that strength training is not useful. Too many athletes have used strength training to run FAR better times that the time that won in Paris.
We’re talking about strength here not hypertrophy.
No one here is arguing for hypertrophy or size.
No - no one here is avocating the foolish use of weight training
No one on this thread avocates using weights to an extreme and in fact some weeks ago there was a thread here arguing that DC had got too heavy - so I don’t think anyone here has any illusions about the negatives of hypertrophy or non-functional mass.
Have a read of the CFTS and perhaps then we can continue the debate after Christmas - I think you owe that much to yourself! - as you firmly believe one thing and everyone else as far as I can see believes something else - including too many coaches, not to mention one of the best sprint coaches ever.
Tim Montgomery holds the world record. In my book, he has demonstrated (under the conditions specified by the IAAF) that he is the fastest man to walk the earth.
Does he know something we don’t. I agree with you that every man and his dog use weights, but then again, they ain’t the fastest man on earth neither running sub 10’s for the 100. I mean if I went to the gym and saw a guy squatting and benching hard and he was bragging how quick he was, my reply would be, “Yeah!, but Kim Collins would leave your ass hanging out to dry, and the only weight he lifts is the gold medals he puts around his neck for winning 100m sprints”.
No, he doesn’t. It means that he is a freak (in the best sense of the word) and only an idiot would base their training on a single exception to the rule.
No, he would be slower. The world record for the 67.5kg (148.5#) class unequipped drug-free squat is 170kg (374#). I would also guess that the guy who did that lift was not anywhere near 6’ tall. So for a 147 pound guy to get to a 350# squat would take a significant effort (especially with regards to CNS energy) which would necessarily take away from the time spent on the track and developing qualities such as RFD. Whereas the 180# guy could get to those numbers pretty easily and would then be able to spend sufficient time on the track to develop the power and technique necessary for accelerating and running fast.
You can’t get Porsche performance from a Hyundai engine…the Porsche costs more and weighs more, but it is worth the tradeoff if you want performance.
Rock N Roll, stop contradicting yourself.
In one thread you take the view that because of a lack of genetics gaining mass wont improve your acceleration. Then in another thread you state that Kim Collins is one who has those genes.
Now you are using him as an example to support your view that gaining mass is bad for everyone.
You are clearly trying to make the world fit with your views.
eh… T-Mont ? no ?
Tim Montgomery doesn’t even make the top 10.
Men’s 100m (50m - 55m - 60m) 15 December 2003 - (1 December 2003)
http://www.iaaf.org/asp/worldRankings/content/m100m.html
Tim Montgomery holds the world record. In my book, he has demonstrated (under the conditions specified by the IAAF) that he is the fastest man to walk the earth.
You couldn’t of asked for better conditions in Paris for sprinting that day with a 2+ legal tailwind. As for the fastest man to walk the earth, you could only give Mo Greene that title. I think he has 44 sub 10 seconds, that is like 22 more sub 10’s than the guy in second.
We’re talking about strength here not hypertrophy.
No one here is arguing for hypertrophy or size.
If where talking about strength i.e weighlifting, how can one not put hypertrophy in the same sentence. I don’t think its possible to lift heavy weights (Increase Strength) and at the same time not create some kind of hypertrophy (Mass).
No, he would be slower. The world record for the 67.5kg (148.5#) class unequipped drug-free squat is 170kg (374#).
My god… I think Mo Greene’s PB for the squat was 140kg… 170kg, I wonder if this guy could sprint???..
Your clutching at straws now…
Rock N Roll,
Please can you explain how weightlifters can remain in the same weight category for years and years and still get stronger (even the small guys, who have no room for movement).
Clearly, if an athlete does the proper weight training, and increases his strength (and does not gain any non-functional mass), then all other activities he does will be “easier” for him. This includes running.
This also aplies to speed. Increase your speed - this in turn will increase your endurance. However, it does not go the other way. Increasing your endurance will not increase your speed.
You keep going on and on about Kim Collins. He won the WC - congratulations, but, this does not make him the fastest/best sprinter. Why do you keep referring to this race. What about all the other runs and times which have went before him???
Ben, Carl, Donovan, Linford, Dwain, Leroy,
If you are talking about the fastest - then you go by time: Surely this is the only criteria you can judge on. (not one race you want to use just to support your arguement). Then when others mention races/athletes to support of theories - you just dismiss them.
We are talking fastest, not greatest - this is an other discussion entirely.
Then when we talk about pure speed, you change the distance, and go on about 400metres and marathons - Make up you mind.
Finally, as for cycling. Have you ever watch programme Superstars?? Tell me how many cyclists ever won the 100m race???
I would love to see Lance Armstrong run against Dwain. If you were correct Lance should win easliy. Never goin to happen.
Finally this time, why don’t you set up a training log, tell everyone a little about yourself, training history, goals, etc. Then what your training looks like. So we can comment for you.
OorWullie,
He can’t or won’t answer your questions because he has only his view and isn’t trying to have a discussion - he is simply trolling.
Exactly.
Go read CFTS and stop wasting our time
Please can you explain how weightlifters can remain in the same weight category for years and years and still get stronger (even the small guys, who have no room for movement).
But where talking about sprinters here and it seems when a sprinter touches a weight, he balloons. Some world class sprinters are between 190lbs-215lbs. Were them sprinters before they took up weights weighing between 190lbs-215lbs???. There weight training has had an effect on the amount of mass they have amounted over the years, no doubt.
How is it possible a weightlifter can remain the same weight for years???.. If you can’t answer that, it was pointless using it as a example.
Clearly, if an athlete does the proper weight training, and increases his strength (and does not gain any non-functional mass), then all other activities he does will be “easier” for him. This includes running.
Does not gain any non-functional mass???.. Have you seen the average sprinter. There twice the size of a Kim Collins and a Carl Lewis (Pound 4 pound)<<< And these guys could run without the use of overrating weight training like you guys do.
This also aplies to speed. Increase your speed - this in turn will increase your endurance. However, it does not go the other way. Increasing your endurance will not increase your speed.
Endurance, The act of bearing or suffering; a continuing under pain or distress without resistance, or without being overcome; sufferance; patience.
Endurance shouldn’t be associated with sprinting or a sprinter, full stop. A sprinter has good endurance, what, so your comparing him to a marathon runner or Lance Armstrong now in terms of having good endurance. That word belongs to guys like Lance Armstrong, Pro Cyclists, Triathletes, Marathon runners etc. Armstrong spends 7 hours a day on his bike, that is endurance, completing a marathon in 3h : 11 Minutes is endurance.
Using weight training as a means of increasing your endurance is so short term. I could squat a 1000lbs at 147, am I going to beat Lance Armstrong in a time trial, hell no.
Then when we talk about pure speed, you change the distance, and go on about 400metres and marathons - Make up you mind.
I can’t remember talking about the 400m or Marathon maybe only as an example to something. And don’t forget, where talking about soccer here and there the distances are more associated with soccer than the 100m.
Finally, as for cycling. Have you ever watch programme Superstars?? Tell me how many cyclists ever won the 100m race???
Never watched it, haven’t even heard of it.
I would love to see Lance Armstrong run against Dwain. If you were correct Lance should win easliy. Never goin to happen.
Let me just give you some of Lances #'s… Your talking about the 100m, I’m talking about soccer and the distances run in that sport.
Resting heart rate: 30-32.
VO2ml/kg: 84.6
Max power at VO2: 600 watts
Max heart rate: 201
Lactate Threshold HR: 178
Time Trial HR: 188-192
Pedal rpm’s during TT: 95-100
Climbing rpm’s: 80-85, sometimes faster when attacking
Average HR during endurance rides (4-6 hrs): 124-128
Average watts during endurance rides: 245-280 watts
Training miles/hours, endurance rides: 5- 6 hrs / 100-130miles
Now, are you telling me Dwain Chambers has these sort of #'s. Could Dwain beat Lance at anything over 800m, I doubt it. Again, people have sprinting on the brain and are thinking that training like one is gonna make you big in soccer.
Finally this time, why don’t you set up a training log, tell everyone a little about yourself, training history, goals, etc. Then what your training looks like. So we can comment for you.
My training is pretty much under wraps, I like to keep it secret especially when I’m at home doing my own thing because I belive I’m close to having the best training log in terms of being complete. Training like a sprinter, yeah, it may make you quick in the short term, but how quickly will that training get you to 10,000m-5miles.
My goals, To be the most complete soccer player in the game today. Everyday I’m thinking, how can I beat Henry over 20m but at the same time have one of the best endurance outputs in the game. Along with training, hours of ball work.
You are no one and your trying to tell us that everything all the greatest speed coaches(Charlie included) say to do is wrong. Well go ahead, keep riding your bike then…do what you think works at making you faster…no one really cares around here because you are just wasting our time with the theory that riding a bike is the best way to improve endurance and speed and that weight training is useless.
As well I could name several athletes in excess of 220lbs that would beat you in any type of sprint and power to bodyweight ratio test.
You are no one
Your not putting up a pretty good case. You have read my last post and haven’t come back with anything at all. I’m putting up my case, your not putting up yours. “You are no one” isn’t exactly proving a point, just that you got beef.
Well go ahead, keep riding your bike then…do what you think works at making you faster…no one really cares around here because you are just wasting our time with the theory that riding a bike is the best way to improve endurance and speed and that weight training is useless.
Take a quote out of my last post/s and put ahead your case why its wrong. Tell me why a guy built like Dwain Chambers (Weight Training) could be a better at soccer than guys who don’t lift such as guys like Kim Collins & Lance Armstrong who has a 84.6 VO2 max Lung Capacity, a
Max power output of 600 watts at VO2 and Lactate Threshold HR: at 178…
Why do you think guys who lift, Dwain Chambers, Bernard Williams, Justin Gatlin etc… Why do these guys have an advantage over guys with better lung capacitys and better power outputs like Kim Collins who don’t lift weights???..
As well I could name several athletes in excess of 220lbs that would beat you in any type of sprint and power to bodyweight ratio test
Well in terms of a shorter 100m type distance. A guy in excess of 220lbs???.. If that guy was to keep up with me during anything over 400m, call the ambulance, I’d put him hospital.
What do you run for 400 meter? Just curious? 
Still trolling…you have all heard the phrase “put up or shut up”? Well, RnR will do neither. He won’t post his training routine because it is ‘secret’ and he only selectively answers questions. My advice is to simply walk away. As hard as it is, simply stop responding to his bogus ‘questions.’
What do you run for 400 meter? Just curious?
I couldn’t tell you, My club doesn’t have access to a track and there isn’t even one within 20 miles of us.
Again, another example of not being able to come back with anything positive. Am I winning the debate???.. 
Where is Big-Ron, Thor… Xl and numba haven’t been able to come back with nothing.
Come on guys, put your cases up. Don’t just say I’m gonna reach my peak before you, cos I lift weights. That isn’t fact, just fiction, a just maybe.
Tell me why lifting weights is positive for soccer when some of the fastest guys on earth from 0-20m, 20m-10,000m, 10,000m- to 5 miles have never lifted a weight and could leave guys who train like sprinters out to dry (All things being = including genetics). This includes sprinting, (nevermind soccer, lol)…