You can be all technical if you want but if theres no base of strength then it doesnt matter.
[QUOTE=tamfb]if you have a guy who squat 200, he will never increase his pc until his strength improves QUOTE]
Not true, the power clean itself provides sufficient stimulus to improve the power clean (but not the squat clean)! Abadjiev began ommitting pulls in the Bulgarian team’s training back in the 70s and recently hypothesised about removing squats as well!
Interestingly, I see many track athletes loading squats to 200kg+ but very few that go anywhere near parallel. To me, that’s the equivalent of not squatting at all!
JE finished his career with a pb of 150. How did he go from 122 in 94 (when he dropped squats) to 150 without a limit strength stimulus?.. Because the cleans themselves were sufficient!
Often, gym strength rises as a result of improved speed rather than causing it. That said, the improved gym strength loops back to create a greater stimulus for the next speed session. If gym strength rises as a result of the speed work, there is no need to reduce the loads, but, rather the number of overall lifts.
- CF
If sprinting can increase maximum strength levels so too can the Olympic lifts. It is my contention that when max power clean exceeds 1.5x body weight it becomes an adequate strength stimulus in it’s own right. Additionally, it is far enough from sprinting on the FV curve to become the primary strength lift. And because it’s a whole body exercise, the number of overall lifts could be reduced further… until perhaps it’s the ONLY lift performed…
Just a theory. Playing devils advocate…
I think you’re right for much the same reason as speed work does. The main reason i like the BP inclusion is the ability to get a last minute (relatively) sttimulus that is removed from the muscles required for the event. I would be nervous to leave a heavy clean as the last stimulus unless I was absolutely certain that the technical proficiency was sufficient to prevent injury. Then again, that’s where you come in!
David not true, the guy squatting 200lbs with never pc 300 no matter how good his tech is until he spend more time increasing his total strength with lifts like squats and dl. Remember its 1/3 tech, 1/3 strength, 1/3 explosiveness.
[quote=“tamfb”]
You’re absolutely wrong. An athlete could NEVER squat OR deadlift and still hit a 300 pounds clean. I know this from personal experience.
Of course, if an athlete increases his power clean then it is likely his squat will also increase (even without training).
Don’t know where you got the 1/3 strength; 1/3 explosivenes; 1/3 technique from. Those numbers are totally arbitrary AND incorrect. Once a lifter has efficient technique does that make the exercise 50% strength and 50% explosiveness? AND isn’t ‘explosiveness’ just the product of strength and speed. So does that mean 75% strength and 25% speed??.. Just so wrong, I don’t know where to start!
[quote=“David_W”]
I am only going by personal exp and with the athletes i have worked with, i have never worked with weightlifters. The times my back and front squat went up my power clean also increased. I will say the higher an athlete sq and dl is the higher potential they have at getting a higher pc.
[quote=“David_W”]
1/3 rule came from KB:
“the clean is really about 1/3 tech, 1/3 explosiveness, and 1/3 strength. Initially clean poundages will increase as you master the correct tech. If you’re the guy who squats 300 and cleans 225, you’d probably never get any better at clean by just practicing cleans. At some point, you’d have to pay your dues in the power rack gettting your strength up on basic movements like squats and dl so that you’d have more raw strength to express”. How much you can clean is highly dependent on how strong you are overall and cleans dont really make you stronger overall.
Sure squats will help improve your cleans but they are not ESSENTIAL for improving them.
Actually, I think you’re both right.
If you use the squat as a principle means to improve the clean, it must go up for hte cleans to go up BUT if you use a different approach, you can get there by that method, even if that means not squating at all.
Its tough to picture someone back squat increasing by only during powercleans; no pulls but just power cleans.
Why not? I’ve always found that the lifting ability of the sprinters is much higher than can be explained by their lifting schedules so I conclude that lifting follows the speed and doesn’t cause it directly (it does indirectly by creating a big stimulus for the subsequent speed session, which causes… well you get the idea). Cleans are explosive and can lead the squat pattern in a similar but possibly less dramatic way.
even if it is placed in the annual plan during an explosive strength block? Also it is impossible to say with all the variables such as level of the athlete training age etc…,
Assumedly an athlete not doing more basic lifts is at a higher level.
can you explain your questions not sure what ur asking?
Just to clarify my stance. I don’t generally advocate the Olympic lifts for sprinters for reasons stated ad nausem. I agree with a general strength program revolving around squats, bench and pulls ups.
That said… I had an illuminating conversation with Carl Johnson last week who said he felt the need to squat was pure Dogma. That led me to think, if all the pieces were in place (technical proficiency, a decent strength base etc) could cleans become the primary strength lift?
I have never tried it and probably wouldn’t have the balls to change a proven winning formula but… It’s certainly worth discussing!
I think thats a good point, if you have a high level athlete ex: JE then removing the squat and making the pc the primary lift may not be a bad move it diff would allow for greater track workouts.
Perhaps I can clarify the matter by simply reminding the group of what I’m sure you already know,
Improvements in general strength will improve specific skills up to a point . Beyond that point the improvement in general strength will cease to be realized via sport form.
This is why the majority of training load volume over time becomes directed towards more specific means of training, regardless of sport discipline, as the athlete attains higher and higher stages of mastery.
In the sprints we know that the GPP period becomes shortened as the years press forward because that end of the development becomes more than sufficient to push/support the improvement of the specific end for the higher qualified trainees.
Very similarly, in weightlifting while improvements in the general end (ergo back squat, pulls, presses etcetera) will, in fact, push/support the further improvement in the snatch and C&J for a while we also no that this will run its course over time and reach a point in which this general stimulus fails to push the competitive total.
Alexeyev, who was well ahead of his time (and strong as hell by the way as illustrated by his enormous press), figured this out early on when he realized that he did not need to back squat more than 260-270kg (if I remember correctly) in training (clearly a sub-maximal load) in order for his competitive total to continue to improve.
while this can quickly become academic, as I think it has a bit over the course of this thread, I think it’s important to take a step back and acknowledge, even from a pedestrian standpoint, that as time moves forward we know that the potential to improve the competition activity becomes less and less.
If the opposite were true than athletes would already be running sub 9 sec in the 100m and C&J 300kg because training and the competition activity has been going on long enough. Yet, in reality, the 100m time has dropped a mere hundredths of seconds over the last number of years and the difference between Taranenko’s and Rezzazadeh’s C&J superheavy record is only a couple kilos.
The gray area comes in when we fail to acknowledge the preparation level of the athlete in question.
meaning:
If we say that so and so improved their powerclean by 20kg by not even training the powerclean and only training their back squat and clean pull then I’ll bet the farm that this individual was no where near the limit of their potential to begin with and they probably could have been leg pressing and back raises and experienced the same result.
Likewise, if we say that so and so dropped .20 off their 100m time by performing no sprints in the range of 60-100m and, instead, performed extensive tempo and longer SE runs then I’ll also bet the farm that this individual was no where near the limit of their potential to begin with and they probably could have trained for the 400m and experienced the same result.
Lastly, if we say that so and so improved their shot throw by 1 meter by performing no throws for a month and only increased their bench press and squat then I’ll also bet the farm that this individual was no where near the limit of their potential to begin with and they probably could have use the hammer strength chest press and squat jump and experienced the same result.
The point is that once you are already nearing the limits of your potential, and certainly high qualification in the competitive event/target of training (be it the powerclean, the 100m or the shot per my examples) then you damn well better be regulating the training/competitive load very carefully and performing exercises of high transference if you expect to squeeze that last bit of improvement out of yourself.
Regarding the training of those of lesser preparedness- there’s too much that works to validate any time spent debating.
Very good points James.
As always very good points James.