I did it and it was fine. I thought there would be problems, but there were not, for me at least.
Yes I would try it and see how you feel. If it seems to pound your legs too much then drop the volume. I switched our guys from grass hills to a sidewalk (hill) this year with no ill effects.
What about incline bounding on a concrete hill?
It is possible. I have done them up a 20m ramp in our hallway. Again, try them and see how you feel. You’ll find out pretty quick if it bothers your legs.
I dont know about this, I would be totally against the use of a concrete surface for any type of running, i have always been under the impression that there is a significant difference between the amounts of force absorbed and therefore injury rates, I myself have only observed shin splints when running on concrete.
“According to a clinical study of 4,000 runners, co-authored by Southern California podiatrist John Pagliano, one of the five leading causes of injury is “improper” running surfaces.”
Ground rules: limit the risk of injury and keep your cardio efforts going full steam ahead by picking the right running surface every time - Cardio Clinic by Bob Cooper
“The ground reaction forces at the foot and the shock transmitted through the body to the head when running on different surfaces has been presented. Although differences in the vertical force and acceleration were measured, they appear to be relatively small. It may be possible that the runner is subconsciously able to adjust the stiffness of his leg just prior to heel strike based upon his perception of the hardness of the surface. It is doubtful that differences of this small magnitude in vertical force would lead to a higher incidence of injury on a particular surface. More likely to be a causative factor might be the rapid transmission of the shock wave through the body on a harder surface, like concrete or asphalt, and the apparent limitation of the runner’s ability to dampen the high-frequency shock waves as his speed increases”
The Biomechanics of Running on Different Surfaces by Feehery RV Jr
I would stick to a grass surface if at all possible, if not although obviously the mechanics are not the same I might try a treadmill before I would go with concrete, obviously the treadmill has its own set of limitations, I didnt take note of where you are from, but around here the snows going to begin and running on snowy concrete is about the worst combintation you can get.
I don’t think hill sprints on concrete for a short period of time (ie GPP) is that bad. I thought it would be and after doing it I found no problem even at volumes around what Charlie does for GPP. The ground contacts are not even close to the same as running in spikes on a synthetic track doing top speed work. If you start to get problems, drop it to 2x a week (2/3 the volume) or just cut the volume of each session. The problem is most places don’t have nice, even, long grass hills at the appropriate gradient. I have only found a few in Western PA and at my college in the midwest, the closest we have to a hill at all is a parking garage w/ the perfect gradient and plenty long (75-80m or so), just with a concrete surface.
Ya. You gotta use what you got. I’ve been looking for hills in my city for almost half a year and each hill has its advantages and disadvantages. I could do:
- A bumpy, rocky, 20m grass hill close to my house
- A 30m tartan covered hill where I’d have to wake up at 4-5am to use it and park quite a distance aways
- A 50m+ concrete hill at the perfect gradient.
So, ankle sprain/not long enough vs. parking/schedule issues vs. shin splints/no spikes.
If I can make the concrete hill work though, it will make my life much easier.
And then there’s always the golf course…
It is not ground contact time that is the problem, it is energy dispersement during the foot strike, the body has to absorb more energy on a stiffer surface.
I am not saying every person will have problems when they switch surfaces, but I would use a softer surface and it would be a close call for me between treadmill and concrete.
No roads you could run on instead of concrete?
Just a question, how do you determine the gradient hill you want to run on and how do you determine if said hill of that gradient, this for all people on the thread not meaning to hijack, but precieved gradient is often no where near actual gradient.
i dont know of the gradient of some of the hills i do… and i dont plan to work it out.
but they are as follows
long 150m hills, 2m rise
long 1min 20 hills must be at least 10m +
short 40m hills 6m rise easy.
It may have to absorb more of the energy produced, but how much? Again, you are not going to be producing nearly as much sprinting up a hill in trainers as you are in spikes doing max v runs w/ full recovery. If this was the case nobody would be training on indoor tracks ever since they are typically extremely hard (mondo in many cases).
I am not saying every person will have problems when they switch surfaces, but I would use a softer surface and it would be a close call for me between treadmill and concrete.
How can you do hill sprints on a treadmill? Unless it is one of those like $10,000 treadmills the incline and speeds won’t be too close and you cannot accelerate either.
No roads you could run on instead of concrete?
… what kind of road?
Just a question, how do you determine the gradient hill you want to run on and how do you determine if said hill of that gradient, this for all people on the thread not meaning to hijack, but precieved gradient is often no where near actual gradient.
I could get a leveler or protrator out, both of which will tell me the exact (depending on the type of course), but it really isn’t that big of a deal. I look for a hill that allows for good form without slowing down the sprint too much or causes technique breakdown and change.
As I said previously in this post:
I would stick to a grass surface if at all possible, if not although obviously the mechanics are not the same I might try a treadmill before I would go with concrete, obviously the treadmill has its own set of limitations, I didnt take note of where you are from, but around here the snows going to begin and running on snowy concrete is about the worst combintation you can get.
However, my treadmill goes to a 10% grade, I usually use only around a 5% grade which isnt that around the recommended hill grade? I find the faster speeds slightly challenging, not amazing, but hey I said limitations, meaning speed and mechanics, I have no indoor track and its better than running on ice or 2 feet of snow at times.
What type of road?
The usual, you know asphault, a lot less stiff than concrete, learned this during my mid distance days in highschool, just looked it up its suppose to be around 10 times softer than concrete.
I would think the energy absorbed from doing a hill run on shoes compared to flat wouldnt be too different, small strides slightly less effort for lower energy during the strike, but faster strikes do to the hill, probably slightly less, but the energy absorption from surface change more than makes up for it. But arent we talking about grass hill vs concrete hill?
Well technique will change at least slightly using a hill, just wondering if anyone actually knew the %grade of their hill.
We’re talking GPP hill sprints. Speed 10 on most treadmills is 6:00 mile pace, which is significantly slower than some people’s tempo (22+s 100’s). Even if you go grade 10 speed 12 (which is the max for some of the really nice treadmills), you are not running very fast and you aren’t accelerating either. Kind of defeats the purpose of the hill sprints.
What type of road?
The usual, you know asphault, a lot less stiff than concrete, learned this during my mid distance days in highschool, just looked it up its suppose to be around 10 times softer than concrete.
I don’t know about a lot less stiff, maybe a little. If that is what the stats say, then that’s what it is, but I don’t find it that much softer and I have sprinted on both.
I would think the energy absorbed from doing a hill run on shoes compared to flat wouldnt be too different, small strides slightly less effort for lower energy during the strike, but faster strikes do to the hill, probably slightly less, but the energy absorption from surface change more than makes up for it. But arent we talking about grass hill vs concrete hill?
Re-read what you just said. Less energy put in and slower. More than makes up for it? We don’t have any numbers to really prove either way. I do know my legs after [10 x 10, 10 x 20, and 10 x 30] hill sprints on concrete felt much better than after an equivalent amount of speed work on a synthetic non-mondo track in spikes.
Well technique will change at least slightly using a hill, just wondering if anyone actually knew the %grade of their hill.
Of course it changes slightly. One of the main reasons to use hill sprints is to help acceleration mechanics becuase of the shin angles achieved.
And I am talking about pour training conditions, for me no indoor track and snow for most of the winter means I spend more time on the treadmill then risking injury, thats just me, thats my preference, ad’s options dont look much better, just a suggestion.
The density and lack of energy absorption are much great in concrete, you can look it up if you like if you believe I am wrong.
If your training acceleration they your tryng to reach the same velocity as if you were on flat ground, the stiffness between grass and concrete isnt hard to see and therefore force absorption properties of each. I find it a little harder to see why there would be signficant difference between strike force of hill running than track running that would more than make up for it, maybe you could help me there.
I would take a different approach then. Weights, plyos, and mb work w/ tempo in the pool or treadmill. What exactly are you trying to get by running on a treadmill besides tempo? Running 20s 100s doesn’t do anything for speed unless you are 5 or 95.
The density and lack of energy absorption are much great in concrete, you can look it up if you like if you believe I am wrong.
Didn’t say I didn’t believe you, just that I don’t find it 10x different and I would be curious how temperature effects that. Also, I would love to find these GRASS hills that are long enough, around a proper gradient (give or take a few percent), and completely smooth and maintained. In western PA I have seen 1 hill ever that fit this description. Now, take somebody in the mid-west, south, or wherever and ask them how easy it is to find one of those well maintained, perfect gradient, long grass hills that is smooth.
If your training acceleration they your tryng to reach the same velocity as if you were on flat ground, the stiffness between grass and concrete isnt hard to see and therefore force absorption properties of each. I find it a little harder to see why there would be signficant difference between strike force of hill running than track running that would more than make up for it, maybe you could help me there.
You can’t see the difference in forces of running ~10% slower? The eccentric force is going to be less since there is less hip height achieved and you are moving at slower speeds. Not sure how else to tell you. Just because we are training acceleration doesn’t mean we need to reach the same velocities as on flat ground–if that was the case there would be no need to use any sort of hill sprints or light resisted sprinting (like w/ a sled or isorobic exerciser, etc.).
Comparing this to distance running is apples and oranges. 600m of hill sprints is a good amount. Distance runners doing 30+ miles (on the rather low end) a week on a hard surface face something much different than doing hill sprints 3x a week max totalling close to 2000m for the whole week.
I guess I’m more in central PA but I have tons of good hills to run on, your from the city so its probably a little different, I have hills all around, even up in ny i have a couple good hills, but I guess in the burgh its different.
That is actually more of what I do i crank it up and down more of an interval tempo type exercise with more plyos and such, so I guess we came to a conclusion for our man here maybe cut the hills if you dont have good ones and try to switch your focus.
So say your going slower @ 10% but if its up hill your probably shortening your stride, well most likely you are, therefore more strikes, and it doesnt need to be too many for it to be 10% more, so your getting that force back almost equalled out, and I believe the stiffness of the concrete would cause your body to absorb more than a few % increase of that energy.
Either way we got to a decent answer, if you dont have good hills get in done in a different manner.
I wasnt comparing it to distance runners, though thats where I had the most noticeable experience, i would think the injury would be even more prevelant with more force being exerted per strike in sprinting.
No, there are tons of hills here and I am from the suburbs, not the city. It is just there are no grass hills the fulfill all the requirements listed. Ones that are long enough are generally too steep and/or have divets that will pretty much guarantee an ankle sprain sooner or later and the ones that are nice and smooth are generally too short for a significant work. There are some decent 20m and under hills, but again, this is the GPP DVD forum where sprints go much further than 20m for the hills.
That is actually more of what I do i crank it up and down more of an interval tempo type exercise with more plyos and such, so I guess we came to a conclusion for our man here maybe cut the hills if you dont have good ones and try to switch your focus.
Even if you crank it up what are you getting out of it besides ext. tempo? It is not even close to int. tempo speed unless you rank up the incline all the way and speed all the way and you do the equivalent of int. tempo 400-600m. By the way, you need an incline on a treadmill just to make it similar to ground running, so 5 degrees on a tread isn’t equivalent to running a hill at 5 degrees.
So say your going slower @ 10% but if its up hill your probably shortening your stride, well most likely you are, therefore more strikes, and it doesnt need to be too many for it to be 10% more, so your getting that force back almost equalled out, and I believe the stiffness of the concrete would cause your body to absorb more than a few % increase of that energy.
I could walk 100 steps, too. You may take 2 more strides or 3 more strides, still not the same as doing top speed work in spikes. Look I believed myself that hill sprints on a hard surface would cause problems and they didn’t. I got very light shin splints for 1, maybe 2 sessions total and that’s probably because I hadn’t done sprints in a few weeks before this. They went away quickly without any special attention.
Either way we got to a decent answer, if you dont have good hills get in done in a different manner.
If you follow a GPP at the right time you shouldn’t have many problems unless you are in Denver or Alaska or something. GPP in sept. and oct. and you won’t have any problems. Even in the winter it isn’t that bad unless it is icey and the roads or sidewalks haven’t been salted.
I wasnt comparing it to distance runners, though thats where I had the most noticeable experience, i would think the injury would be even more prevelant with more force being exerted per strike in sprinting.
But it is completely different. A high volume week of hill sprinting would be around 2000m and a high volume week of distance running would be over 80 miles (64x the volume). Even if you are a low volume distance person you are probably doing over 30 miles a week, still much much much different volumes done more frequently.
Geezus, alright, I said treamdill was just an option, this is about using concrete hills not what the hills in suburban pittsburgh look like, or what my workouts were like, if you want to know pm me and i will talk more about my treadmill workout. Ok and assuming no snow they are doing it in october, though someone probably wouldnt be asking about what they should do now if they were doing it in october.
I am not talking about distance, whatever I said about distance was just for reference, ok, I am talking about just sprints.
Your not going to hit the same speed I already said that, say 10% less thats still not a walk, your still exerting a lot of force on the ground your still attempting near maximal its not going to be the same as a sprint in spikes your right.
And I said not everyone will get shin splints, just because it didnt happen to you much doesnt mean its as good as grass.
So if all else being equal you would prefer running on a concrete surface than grass?
It should produce slightly faster times and you dont have to worry about the irregularities that can happen in grass.
I know it is about concrete hills. Read the whole thread as I too thought it would be too hard to run on concrete, but it wasn’t for me or anybody else I know that has done it.
Why don’t you post these treadmill workouts and what you feel you are getting out of them beyond ext. tempo? Your PR is around 11.2xfat right? Even int. tempo on grass in trainers for you would have to be in the 15s range. Running 20s 100s is extensive tempo, that is it, and not relevant to what is being discussed (hill sprints as described in the GPP DVD). 5 degrees on a treadmill is barely beyond normal flat running (studies posted on this site and others have shown 3 to be about equal to normal flat running).
All equal I would pick grass if it had an identical slope, consistency, and length to the best concrete hill available. The reason would be that I could use spikes and have a change of surface for a little bit. Show me a pic of a grass hill near you that is consistent (without random holes or divots), well maintained, perfect gradient, etc. Since this is not possible for most people, concrete is a better alternative, in my opinion. Heck, it is not possible in most of the very hilly western PA, so I don’t see how people in the midwest or south, where it is mostly flat, are going to get these perfect grass hills you speak of.
Once again stay on topic:
What are you even arguing?
I said my treadmill stuff is tempo, I didnt say it is used the same way, I said if you want to talk about it pm, this is not the subject of the thread.
I said if you dont have hills you should use other means such as the weightroom and plyos to get similiar work in if you do not have good hills accessible to you.
If you find it hard to postulate that in a 5 mile long farm/hunting town of 5000 people that there are no good hills to run on then sobeit i am not running around taking pictures to prove a point.
I said not everyone will get shin splints, not everyone gets an injury if they train on improper surfaces, if you didnt and you like concrete go run on it.
I dont know everything about biomechanics or shock absorption and from the studies I read there are arguments for both sides though I think the evidence look as if it is more harmful running on concrete, but in may be my bias. I have never studied or am an expert in many if any of the areas talked about on this site and I dont pretend to be.
I was giving my opinion, I think the risks associated with the stiffer surfaces outweigh the benefits of still using them, obviously you think different and thats fine. And your right grass can have divets and holes etc which can also be dangerous, most every surface has pros and cons, thats how it works, all and all I think concrete is a bad choice, thats why I gave it as my suggestion, I’m not an expert, just someone giving their suggestion, your suggestion is equally arguable.
Now there is more information for an informed decision, which is the whole point.
Every thread doesnt need to end in an argument of who knows more, the point is to help each other.
So, I just did 220m of 10’s and 20’s on my concrete hill. It seems ok. 300-400 would be the max total I would shoot for per session on any surface anyways as I’m gonna be doing more jumps and bounds than a sprinter. So it was ok and I did a decent amount of my target volume.
The predictability of the surface (it’s actually like cement with rocks in it) is refreshing. No potholes like my old grass. I think I MIGHT have started feeling a little sump’n-sump’n in my shins, but I’ve had much worse on a flat track. Just in case though, I might do some dorsiflexion exercises to strengthen my tibialis anterior. Those have helped in the past.
I actually discovered the grass bordering this sidewalk is decent. But I can only do 20’s on it, and the grass is angled sideways, as it’s the top of a hill.