I believe AthleticsCoach is absolutely right about extensive tempo and delayed peaking.
In 1995 ,as part of the training for Atlanta, Geir Moen was doing 44x80 meters on track ,and I remember his coach saying that this extensive running was done for him to peak next year at the olympics. (I dont know what else they did though)
Sure enough he run his fastest races ever in 96 ,clocking 10.08 and 20.17 ,but didnt peak in time for Atlanta.
The downside ofcourse is that Moen ever since following this way of training (though if because of it i dont know) suffered an achilles injury ,which clearly denied him the sub10 and sub20 races he was capable of.
It is a fact also that among sprinters following this training regimen there was ,and are many and repeated injuries.
One sprinter who joined this group was more or less told that because he doubled his training on track he would suffer injuries ,sure enough after having lowered his pb by a couple of tenths in that years first run he suffered an injury and after having battled it for a while decided to quit sprinting fulltime and take up normal work.
It seems that this extensive work can indeed lead to very good ,but sporadic performances, but at the cost of possible (and probable) injury.
Ofcourse there is always someone who gets away with it.
Good post informative AthlethicsCoach
AthleticsCoach, thank you for your insightful analysis.
How does extensive tempo lead to injuries? I would think that the gentler nature of the training would be much safer than a lot of hard sprinting.
mikeh:
What I am saying is that MJ had more innate speed capacity than others who have run the 400m at Baylor. Since the workouts are based on a pace rather than percentage of max., it is the other athletes who are running in the intensive range, while MJ was able to stay extensive. The only reason that MJ only ran @21.3 is high school is that he was essentially untrained.
The injuries and lack of improvement were related to running too long in this zone, IMO. The lack of rest and recovery, as well as the constant pounding of left turns on the track could also contribute. In coach Hart’s defense, the goal is to run at a very high level, and training to reach this is by nature sometimes on the edge, so to speak. He does spend a large part of the fall training on grass, trying to get the guys ready for what lies ahead.
As Charlie has stated, since it worked for him (MJ) it can’t be inherently wrong. I just don’t think that it would be a good plan for an athlete without speed reserve. What happens with Jeremy Wariner will tell us alot, as he came to Baylor with real speed over 200m.
If the program works great for MJ but what about the other baylor athletes.
Break down their improvement.
Carl
Clemson:
Not so great in the long run for the other Baylor athletes. Here are a few that come to mind.
Raymond Pierre, who was a couple yeas ahead of MJ at Baylor, ran fast in his junior year (as I remember it) and then failed to improve and went backwards as a post grad. I believe that he was coach Hart’s first world class 400m athlete.
Brandon Couts was very highly regarded coming out of high school, but never made a real impact while at Baylor, and is struggling as a post grad last time I looked.
Zsolt Szeglet improved dramatically when he first came over from Hungary, but seems to have been injured since 2001.
Darold Williamson did improve somewhat this season (soph) dropping his p.b. to 44.95, but failed to make the final at NCAA’s. He’s a very strong finisher, but gets left too far off the pace early in races, and seems to have trouble recovering the lost ground against quality fields. He tried to adjust his race at NCAA’s and couldn’t.
Jeremy Wariner ran 45.13 (43.9r) coming off an injury (rested?), and then was hobbled throughout the rest of the season and only ran the 4x400r at NCAA’s. Is a MJ “type” talent having run sub-20sec. in high school.
These are the ones that I can recall off the top of my head. The trend though has been for athletes to hit their best marks in either their soph or junior years, and then struggle to maintain, much less improve. Injuries also seem to have been a controlling factor in performance.
Cheers
Don’t forget Marlon Ramsey, and Deon Minor.
Looking in from the outside I would guess something is wrong in the program. Do many of their sprinters fall off.
What about LSU and their ladies. They all seem to peak their last two years(Mona is an exception) but don’t do anything after they leave.
goodtimes, Brings up a goodpoint. What about percentage of college students that fall off after their highschool careers. I remember after highscool I did a recruiting service which must have brought in over 500 letters easily from different schools. The school were from all over the place…Miami, temple, boston college, princeton, and Georgetown…even one from a school in west virginia “wheeling jesuit” sent me something… Some were big names while some were not I went through everyguide to compare highschool to college times and was scared by my results. Maybe 70% did not. Maybe higher. Any comments.
My impression was that Couts did make an impression on the quarter, but didn’t reach anywhere near his potential in the event.
When he arrived at Baylor, he was coming down from a 800m back ground whilst MJ was coming up from a 100m/200m back ground, were their differences in background reflected in the programmes Hart prescribed?
On another note, how did Clyde Hart approach the development of speed? I’ve noticed that 150m build ups and “h” drills often take place before some sessions - do these in addition to “speedmakers*” represent the bulk of speed work?
*I have an idea as to what these are, but not the specifics - could you describe them?
Good discussion!
A couple of questions:
Are the athletes who seem to stagnate after their college careers still running with their college coaches and/or programs?
What is the relationship between injuries and:
running in a college program where you compete every weekend and must score
versus a club program where the coach/athlete have less pressure to compete and can skip a meet?
TheOne:
I didn’t mean to forget Ramsey and Minor, they just didn’t pop into my mind. In terms of LSU’s women, how far back are we talling about here? They’ve had 2-3 different coaches since Loren Seagrave was fired (1989?).
Dazed:
Couts was acclaimed to be the next big 400m guy out of Baylor; in otherwords MJ-like. It never happened. The 800m backround means that a different approach needed to be taken, but I doubt that it was. 400m runners (men + women) follow a fixed approach from what I have observed. In terms of speed development, you’ve got it all right there, unless the athlete is on the 4x100r, and then they do exchanges. Some starts are in the program as well. Remember all of this is done in flats.
Carson:
Tough to say who’s stayed in Waco and who has moved on. The post grad situation in the USA is so muddled. I heard that one of the Jamaican (I think that it was Haughton) trained with coach Hart in 2000.
Cheers
Has anyone here seen coach Hart’s video that discusses attributes of the 400 runner and training protocols? ( The 4th box down from the top of this site: http://www.vaultworld.com/prsport/videosprints.html ). If anyone has seen it, can the speak of the content of the video? Thanks much.
It’s not a bad tape, nothing great. He goes over why he likes 200m repeats, 350m runs ect. ect.
Can you expand on why he likes the distances mentioned?
What exactly is the purpose of doing a 495m or a 485m as opposed to a 450m or a 500m? I see that alot but have never understood the point. Someone explain.
THEONE ~ (Tks). There wouldn’t happen to be any footage of MJ training, would there?
Also, MJ had a site a few years ago where he went into certain details about training and competing. The site disappeared before I could make note of the info. Does this info appear anywhere else, to anyone’s knowledge?
Interesting, Athleticscoach…can you describe MJ:s strengthprogram more ditailed?
When you say 7-10 reps, was that heavy loads or lighter weights?
This should go against 1-6 reps-theory. And build more raw strength than power shouldn`t it?
Thoughts…
Dazed, I saw that tape a few years ago so I don’t remember the details. I remember Hart saying that every new coach that come and works under him wants to change the workouts up some. He said he has to correct them and let them know that coaching is not about writing workouts but getting information to the athlete. He did say if he had to choose one workout to do, it would be the repeat 200m.
Mohikan:
I had a copy of MJ’s weights program, but it was so far off what I’d do with an athlete that I think that I threw it away. Most of it was published in one of the musclehead magazine back in 2000. As with all of his training it seems counter-intuative to what people here would prescribe. No there was no real attempt to build max. strength per se. I do know that he and coach Hart were concerned about his increased bulk by 2000 and felt that that may have contributed to his injuries post-1996. He actually did try to strip some mass after the trials as he was no longer going to be running the 200m and it was thought that his size was hurting him in the 400m. If you’ve seen him lately he is very thin, which is his natural build.
Remember, as Charlie said, while we may disagree with the methods, MJ’s program cannot be classified as incorrect due his results.
As for the video , I’ve seen it, though I don’t own it. Unless you have money to burn or can get it very cheap, I’d say don’t bother. You can get all the same info from the 400m training article by coach Hart that is so widely available. In any case guys, there are some things that I would adapt from coach Hart’s way of thinking, but I would not copy it for the reasons already discussed in this thread.
That’s a cool link, has anyone seen the Tellez video?