marion jones 2001 strength training

[Charlie_Francis]

@lkh

From Verkhoshansky, “The Development of Special-Strength in Power/Speed Events”:

From Nelio Moura and Tania Fernandes de Paula Moura,“Training principles for jumpers:
implications for special strength development”:

So there ARE negative implications of max strength phases for sprinters, particularly if done for more than a few weeks (i.e., westside-type programs). We have had this type of discussion before, and Charlie’s response is to emphasize short cycles. While you may “get away with” this type of training for a few weeks, it would appear there would be negative longer term effects of continued for a season.

Regarding Ato and slow weight lifting. John Smith does not believe in slow lifting. I have a reference where Smith says, “More than actual poundages, I try emphasise and see how fast the bar is moving.”

Sorry but speed of the bar in sprinting is statistically irrelevant. it is load overall and its effect on the whole picture- ie how much does max str compete with speed work and the switch over to faster weights almost never stay up with the output of max wts because lifting skills by sprinters are insufficient.

[Albert_Pike]

@Charlie_Francis

Sorry but speed of the bar in sprinting is statistically irrelevant. it is load overall and its effect on the whole picture- ie how much does max str compete with speed work and the switch over to faster weights almost never stay up with the output of max wts because lifting skills by sprinters are insufficient.

This still does not address the fact that performing dynamic concentric/eccentric isotonic resistance exercise with close to 1RM, involving joint action movement similar to sprinting trains the nervous system to “behave” in the exact same manner as that when an external load as above is used. The closer to
1RM, the closer to an isometric muscle action in which the Actin and Myosin filaments attach and re-attach in a particular way. This should not be sought after in regards for sprinting, unless for improving force production out of the starting blocks…

[Charlie_Francis]

@Albert_Pike

This still does not address the fact that performing dynamic concentric/eccentric isotonic resistance exercise with close to 1RM, involving joint action movement similar to sprinting trains the nervous system to “behave” in the exact same manner as that when an external load as above is used. The closer to
1RM, the closer to an isometric muscle action in which the Actin and Myosin filaments attach and re-attach in a particular way. This should not be sought after in regards for sprinting, unless for improving force production out of the starting blocks…

Once? Twice? What?
There is a big range of options between never and always.
Likewise, a favourable response to faster lifts may be precisely because most can’t do them with the same demand level rather than the action of the exercise itself.
Everything depends on how much, how many, how often, and how long.

[Albert_Pike]

@Charlie_Francis

Once? Twice? What?
There is a big range of options between never and always.
Likewise, a favourable response to faster lifts may be precisely because most can’t do them with the same demand level rather than the action of the exercise itself.
Everything depends on how much, how many, how often, and how long.

And, might I add, the individual athlete.

[Charlie_Francis]

@lkh

From Verkhoshansky, “The Development of Special-Strength in Power/Speed Events”:

From Nelio Moura and Tania Fernandes de Paula Moura,“Training principles for jumpers:
implications for special strength development”:

So there ARE negative implications of max strength phases for sprinters, particularly if done for more than a few weeks (i.e., westside-type programs). We have had this type of discussion before, and Charlie’s response is to emphasize short cycles. While you may “get away with” this type of training for a few weeks, it would appear there would be negative longer term effects if continued for a season.

Regarding Ato and slow weight lifting, John Smith does not believe in slow lifting. I have a reference where Smith says, “More than actual poundages, I try emphasise and see how fast the bar is moving.”

1:Ato and HSI lifted before speed according to their commentary (of course, not everything they say may be accurate). This needs to be kept in mind when judging the effect of weights on speed work.
2: We weren’t “getting away” with short cycles, we were getting a strong positive response to that work which we could maintain for a prolonged period afterwards, so long as we kept near the high weight numbers for decreasing rep numbers.
3: In all cases, the athletes lifted well within their abilities and weights were never an end in themselves.

[Charlie_Francis]

@Albert_Pike

And, might I add, the individual athlete.

Yes. Add that as well! - First actually!

[maris]

[QUOTE=Albert Pike] Based on what has been made public, Powell and Bolt do not engage in lifting for max strength yet these two are the fastest humans to have ever lived. [QUOTE]

I have read this for Powell, but not for Bolt. Do you have a reference?

So, according to what has been written in this forum, maximal lifting in terms of the stress, should be limited to blocks a few weeks long. Am I right in thinking CF eased up on the numbers as opposed to the load, whereas Albert is recommending lightening the load??

Sorry, I am coming at this from a basic level.

[John]

@Albert_Pike

I would also like to point out, that depending on the individual, an increase in max strength may not increase sprint performance (all things being equal) as the body adapts specifically to what it is imposed upon it (i.e. differences in motor unit & muscle fiber recruitment in peforming isometric, isotonic, isokinetic movements, eccentric, concentric, and isometric muscle actions,etc…) For some, lifting slow decreases their performance (i.e. Ato Boldon) Based on what has been made public, Powell and Bolt do not engage in lifting for max strength yet these two are the fastest humans to have ever lived.

Supertraining provides plenty of information on research done by Verkoshansky using high level sprinters and lighter loads moved quickly. Is there research that says otherwise?

What you say may be right but isn’t weights just a part of the puzzle? Don’t forget plyo’s, can’t you can get around some of this if they are incorporated year round just altered throughout as with weights ala vertical integration.

[TopCat]

Just in case I’m rubbish at putting my point across. I’m not saying don’t do max strength. I use it (!) and for the very reasons PJ says - it helps generally. What I am saying is that I’m not sure what the best trade off is when using it.

If the ROM decreases the amount of weight you can lift increases. So where does the trade off between weight lifted and ROM used become unfavourable? Is it quarter squat, 1/8 squat what? At ground contact the limbs are almost straight so why not load up with 500kg and move it a couple of inches? Would this not be more specific? Also when coming out of blocks the angle of the front knee is usually around 90 degrees, so a 1/2 squat would be more specific to this position for starting strength. But also the back leg is at around 120 degrees so perhaps a 1/4 squat might be more specific here.

Now I don’t think it is really a bad thing to do 1/4 squats (and obviously you have to do them if the athlete is stiff like Olu) but when people do things like have weak female high jumpers (1.80m HJ, 55kg bodyweight) load up with 220kg and do 1/4-1/8 squats for specificity and then wonder why they have ankle and back issues, I question the logic. When thinking about Linford I ask if he was doing that because he was stiff and then making up the excuse that it was more specific or if he had the option to do them to parallel but decided he wanted to lift more weight and use a smaller ROM.

[maris]

@TopCat

Just in case I’m rubbish at putting my point across. I’m not saying don’t do max strength. I use it (!) and for the very reasons PJ says - it helps generally. What I am saying is that I’m not sure what the best trade off is when using it.

If the ROM decreases the amount of weight you can lift increases. So where does the trade off between weight lifted and ROM used become unfavourable? Is it quarter squat, 1/8 squat what? At ground contact the limbs are almost straight so why not load up with 500kg and move it a couple of inches? Would this not be more specific? Also when coming out of blocks the angle of the front knee is usually around 90 degrees, so a 1/2 squat would be more specific to this position for starting strength. But also the back leg is at around 120 degrees so perhaps a 1/4 squat might be more specific here.

Now I don’t think it is really a bad thing to do 1/4 squats (and obviously you have to do them if the athlete is stiff like Olu) but when people do things like have weak female high jumpers (1.80m HJ, 55kg bodyweight) load up with 220kg and do 1/4-1/8 squats for specificity and then wonder why they have ankle and back issues, I question the logic. When thinking about Linford I ask if he was doing that because he was stiff and then making up the excuse that it was more specific or if he had the option to do them to parallel but decided he wanted to lift more weight and use a smaller ROM.

I think that is a very interesting point regarding the trade off. At UWIC I have seen triple jumpers go in the weights room and do pathetic squats, but loaded right up. Linford was never particularly flexible, so that may well have been an issue, in terms that he would rather spend the time building the strength in the ROM he did have, as opposed to developing the ROM.

[maris]

@Albert_Pike

The fact that Olu didn’t engage in traditional weight bearing exercise during his first season, may have actually helped his performance as there is research that shows that after only a few isotonic weight training workouts, fast twitch Type IIB muscle fibers shift over to Type IIA.

I would also like to point out, that depending on the individual, an increase in max strength may not increase sprint performance (all things being equal) as the body adapts specifically to what it is imposed upon it (i.e. differences in motor unit & muscle fiber recruitment in peforming isometric, isotonic, isokinetic movements, eccentric, concentric, and isometric muscle actions,etc…) For some, lifting slow decreases their performance (i.e. Ato Boldon) Based on what has been made public, Powell and Bolt do not engage in lifting for max strength yet these two are the fastest humans to have ever lived.

Supertraining provides plenty of information on research done by Verkoshansky using high level sprinters and lighter loads moved quickly. Is there research that says otherwise?

Surely at some point, no matter the rep range, you will be lifting nearly isometrically?? If you are pushing to near failure. Without doing so, I do not see how you can progress in terms of strength. Am I following this correctly? What is your solution to this Albert?

[sprinterouge]

The fact that Olu didn’t engage in traditional weight bearing exercise during his first season, may have actually helped his performance as there is research that shows that after only a few isotonic weight training workouts, fast twitch Type IIB muscle fibers shift over to Type IIA.

The switch of MHC expression toward IIa characteristics happens anytime you do any lactic power work, even track work (you can find the study done on sprinters on PubMed by the same danish author of the study you mention: Jesper Andersen). Seems that one of the benefits of tapering is exactly the switch back to IIb chracteristics of the MHC.

For some, lifting slow decreases their performance (i.e. Ato Boldon)

As long as they still practice sprinting, lifting slowly (despite something I don’t preach, personally) would have not detrimental effect on performance; yet not even the same benefits.

Supertraining provides plenty of information on research done by Verkoshansky using high level sprinters and lighter loads moved quickly. Is there research that says otherwise?

Verkhoshanskij suggests squatting in the 85+% range for jumpers and sprinters, mostly 90%.

Also, when lifting that heavy, the transition (amortization phase) between concentric and eccentric or vice versa involves a very long isometric muscle action.

This is a bodybuilding myth. Sprinters with some strength training experience can lift explosively up to 92,5% of 1RM Squat. Anyhow, it would not be the objective of MxS training the one to train coupling time anyway.

BOSCO (1985a) noticed a negative relationship between the development of maximal strength and special strength in elite Italian jumpers. Even though he did not suggest eliminating maximal strength training, he recommended limiting the duration of this training period to a maximum of 8 weeks. He justified that by the fact that after 8 weeks, undesired ultra-structural changes in the muscles can be seen, such as a hypertrophy of Type I fibres which will hamper elite performance (Figure 6). Before such changes happen, other training methods able to develop type II fibres (mainly llb) should replace maximal strength methods.

So there ARE negative implications of max strength phases for sprinters, particularly if done for more than a few weeks (i.e., westside-type programs).

Sorry but the guys down in Rome consider pyramid training marathons as maximal strength training. I don’t take the results too literally, although Bosco was a great researcher overall.
As PJ wrote, look how the study was done.

Everything depends on how much, how many, how often, and how long.

Ditto.

So where does the trade off between weight lifted and ROM used become unfavourable?

Safety wise, depends on technique stability and body readiness (->load progression over time).

For istance, anything below 400lbs flies from my shoulders and make most barbell wobble (except when I use the Eleiko’s), so when I go low reps I MUST stay over 400lbs if I want to lift explosively in a safe manner. Lately I have been doing sets of 15 of Jump Squats with 300+lbs.

I have trained a quite high level sprinter who did 6x490 1/2 Squat and 2x310 Bench (quite easy). I trained with the same sprinter a couple years later when he was strength training much less with another coach and he had a hard time doing 2 reps at 490, but once he passed 45° knee flexion he was still fast as hell.

Also when coming out of blocks the angle of the front knee is usually around 90 degrees, so a 1/2 squat would be more specific to this position for starting strength. But also the back leg is at around 120 degrees so perhaps a 1/4 squat might be more specific here.

Yes, “high” squats have more specificity overall.

when people do things like have weak female high jumpers (1.80m HJ, 55kg bodyweight) load up with 220kg and do 1/4-1/8 squats for specificity and then wonder why they have ankle and back issues

A very good friend of mine (1,90HJ and 6,60LJ) is 1,73cm, 63Kg and her max 1/4 squat is 220Kg. She has no physical problems, but it all comes down to progression.
Very heavy 1/4 are not for the beginners.

Linford was never particularly flexible, so that may well have been an issue, in terms that he would rather spend the time building the strength in the ROM he did have, as opposed to developing the ROM.

Developing ROM is not the main objective of strength training, but I do preach using full ROM during GP and for most exercises most of the time.

[Albert_Pike]

@sprinterouge

The switch of MHC expression toward IIa characteristics happens anytime you do any lactic power work, even track work (you can find the study done on sprinters on PubMed by the same danish author of the study you mention: Jesper Andersen). Seems that one of the benefits of tapering is exactly the switch back to IIb chracteristics of the MHC.

As long as they still practice sprinting, lifting slowly (despite something I don’t preach, personally) would have not detrimental effect on performance; yet not even the same benefits.

Verkhoshanskij suggests squatting in the 85+% range for jumpers and sprinters, mostly 90%.

This is a bodybuilding myth. Sprinters with some strength training experience can lift explosively up to 92,5% of 1RM Squat. Anyhow, it would not be the objective of MxS training the one to train coupling time anyway.

Sorry but the guys down in Rome consider pyramid training marathons as maximal strength training. I don’t take the results too literally, although Bosco was a great researcher overall.
As PJ wrote, look how the study was done.

Ditto.

Safety wise, depends on technique stability and body readiness (->load progression over time).

For istance, anything below 400lbs flies from my shoulders and make most barbell wobble (except when I use the Eleiko’s), so when I go low reps I MUST stay over 400lbs if I want to lift explosively in a safe manner. Lately I have been doing sets of 15 of Jump Squats with 300+lbs.

I have trained a quite high level sprinter who did 6x490 1/2 Squat and 2x310 Bench (quite easy). I trained with the same sprinter a couple years later when he was strength training much less with another coach and he had a hard time doing 2 reps at 490, but once he passed 45° knee flexion he was still fast as hell.

Yes, “high” squats have more specificity overall.

A very good friend of mine (1,90HJ and 6,60LJ) is 1,73cm, 63Kg and her max 1/4 squat is 220Kg. She has no physical problems, but it all comes down to progression.
Very heavy 1/4 are not for the beginners.

Developing ROM is not the main objective of strength training, but I do preach using full ROM during GP and for most exercises most of the time.

Interesting how you seem to “cherry pick” information from Siff. In supertraining, there are several fairly large sections in his book that detail the interaction between concentric and eccentric muscle actions, while basing some of his conclusions on Newtons’s Laws of Motion. I highly suggest you go back and read Supertraining again. At no point in time does Siff reference Bodybuilding in regards to how iso’s work so you calling it a “bodybuilding myth” is complete garbage and sounds like some shit you made up.

[sprinterouge]

Albert,

I was a pupil of Siff (he defined me so) and I work for Verkhoshanskij.

'Nuff said.

[Albert_Pike]

@sprinterouge

Albert,

I was a pupil of Siff and I work for Verkhoshanskij.

'Nuff said.

1. Its Verkhoshansky

2. Apparently you weren’t paying attention.

[sprinterouge]

Lol!!!

You crack me up…

[DanPartelly]

@Albert_Pike

Interesting how you seem to “cherry pick” information from Siff. In supertraining, there are several fairly large sections in his book that detail the interaction between concentric and eccentric muscle actions, while basing some of his conclusions on Newtons’s Laws of Motion. I highly suggest you go back and read Supertraining again. At no point in time does Siff reference Bodybuilding in regards to how iso’s work so you calling it a “bodybuilding myth” is complete garbage and sounds like some shit you made up.

You highly suggest ? This makes me roll on the floor laughing, mate.

You speak so textbook, that I wonder if you didnt memorized Supertraining by the hearth, haha.

[NumberTwo]

I wonder how deep Bolt squats. At 6’5" he must squat below parallel to take a crap.

Couldn’t resist…

[Albert_Pike]

@DanPartelly

You highly suggest ? This makes me roll on the floor laughing, mate.

You speak so textbook, that I wonder if you didnt memorized Supertraining by the hearth, haha.

Yes, I highly suggest. Then again I guess I don’t know what i’m talking about considering that the athlete who I am the strength and conditioning coach for just ran the fastest time in the world this year for the 400m dash. Yup, it all started right here in VA.

The reason I “write” (not speak, this is a website) so textbook is because if you are going to look at the research and implement it, you had better make sure your interpretation of the conclusion is accurate other wise you screw up.

Should I even bother to ask who you’ve trained…?

[d_nasty]

@Albert_Pike

Yes, I highly suggest. Then again I guess I don’t know what i’m talking about considering that the athlete who I am the strength and conditioning coach for just ran the fastest time in the world this year for the 400m dash. Yup, it all started right here in VA.

The reason I “write” (not speak, this is a website) so textbook is because if you are going to look at the research and implement it, you had better make sure your interpretation of the conclusion is accurate other wise you screw up.

Should I even bother to ask who you’ve trained…?

wow… “i work with merritt”. pwn.