Correction:
After considering my original and past statements, I would still choose my way but understand why others would choose another. I just wanted to make it clear that although I believe in the method I wrote of, it’s not the only way. Cheers.
i can go atg with lo wbar squats though i go as low as high bar and i do narrow stance low bar squat what would that do? For me i actually FEEL weaker and the heavyness of the weight when my legs are wide like i see in most powerlifting but i keep it close like olylifters with a low bar squat. Well i will try high bar next week see how strong i got in that, im sure the low bar must have strengthened the high bar abit anyways.
By your method of logic nothing would get done and you would just sit on your computer and make recommendations that spin people around in circles. How much better have you gotten this year, where are your results?
Tranferability is high in lifting exercise and it does not necessarily have to be at the same joint angles. You think somebody who half squats has no transferability over to 10 or 20% angle below that? Or who high bar squats has no transferability to lower bar?
I dont understand the nit pickiness here when most people asking the questions are running very sub elite times, go out and run dont worry about if your full squating or low bar squating, just do something and get better.
i get the feeling that powerlifter type squats dont go deep cause of wide stances and short leverages. Man i go deep as deep can get, i will go parallel or atg this hasnt changed when i do high bar or low bar, when i maxed out a new PB in the low bar squat i was 6 inches from the floor with a narrow stance, my body has a hard time in wide stance and i do notice short lever when i do it HOWEVER i seem to lift more weight with low bar and narrow stance which feels alot more comfortable.
yes this is how approach things. I mix it up in the weightroom and sprint, it doesnt hurt to know the rocket science everyonce in awhile hehehe.
oh yes i forgot to add i have long arms (5’8.5 and can reach high up with arm then a 6’0 guy)long torso and short legs so i dont know how that works.
if i were the asshole that you think i am i woud simply say that i ran sub 10 and squated 900 lbs when the year b4 i was in a wheelchar… but im not the asshole u think i am, im another type of asshole all together lol. you say im nit picking and yes i am. perfection in training and movement. but we are talking theory here, not medocrity. we differ in that i want the absolute best from my body and those i work with so when i talk about stuff like this i do nit pick as you said. no i wouldnt say all that many ppl are running elit etimes on this board but im sure they all want to get the absolute most out of their training. let me also say that simply squating correctly/athletically isnt going to make you a great athlete its but one component that needs to be nit picked on. so im not saying if you change ur squat to how i describe ur times will drop like crazy but you will benefit from a nit picked program.
James ,you’ll like the following extracts from Frens Bosch and Ronald Klomp’s book “Running: Biomechanics and Exercise Physiology in Practice”,and others might at least have a bit more precise understanding of your lines of thought:
“At spinal-cord level, there is a coupling between a muscle and its antagonist (an
inhibiting action of each on the other). This system of excitation and inhibition also
functions in the larger system of the stumble reflex. Imagine that someone walking
along the street does not see a piece of pavement protruding. To avoid falling, the
swing leg (which was in the process of moving forward) is caught hanging by the
point of its shoe behind the protruding edge. In order to avoid falling, the stance leg,
which was in the process of carrying out backward flexion (the foot leaves back
wards), shoots forward to support the body as it falls forward. Moving the support
leg to the front was done without thinking or wishing it to happen (i.e. involuntary action
Apparently, unexpected backward flexion in one leg results in an equally
unplanned forward flexion in the other leg. One can speak of an involuntary response not only in the case of antagonist muscles, but also in the case of one
in relation to the other. This reflex (the stumble reflex) can be incorporated well in
regular patterns of motion. In other words, when someone wants to carry out rapid
backward flexion in the support leg (powerful push-off) then this can best be accopanied by a powerful forward flexion in the swing leg Both motions are closely and
involuntarily interrelated (Burgerhout et al 1995, Cranenburgh 1997a,b).
A similar involuntary reflex response is seen in the relationship between flexion
in one leg and extension in the other leg (i.e. the inverse-extension reflex). When
someone steps unexpectedly on a sharp object, the leg which receives the pain stimulus bends involuntarily, while the other leg stretches as a reflex response
Powerful extending of the support leg at the end of support can be strengthened
simultaneously bending the swing leg at the hip and knee more powerfully. It is
particularly at the start of this sequence that the inverse-extension reflex proves to
be quite important.
The sprint is a more precise implementation of both the stumble and inverse extension reflexes. The level that can be reached using the support of a reflex
impossible to achieve any other way. Because excitation and inhibition (tension
and the release of tension) occur so rapidly in succession and vary so greatly in peak
during running, having developed a good reflex response becomes a condition sine
qua non. When training techniques for speed running, push-off must be well coordinated with the action of the swing leg so that the reflex response can work maximally. Moreover, it is more than worth the effort during strength training to look at
types of exercise in which involuntary movements can play role. In particular
training in which speed and force can be combined will thereby be facilitated certainty. In practice, running instruction demonstrates that the two above mentioned reflexes are interrelated The best approach to teaching running technique is therefore to begin with the total pattern.”
I don’t think every sprint action/reflex needs to be duplicated in the weight room (squat rack). Does this mean that Jeremy Wariner’s leg press workouts for reps is causing bad motor patterns which prevent him from running 41?
Theory is grand. Bosch and Klomp VS the POSE method. After reading this excerpt, I bet people on here will start stumbling and stepping on sharp objects for workouts.
yes what he calls reflex i call feedforward system (the system is composed of trained reflex). this system must be developed in training that is why it is so important to perform things properly. perfection is impossilble to achieve but one can always move closer to it. everytime you perform a rep with incorrect form you move yourself away from “adaptive perfection” every correct rep you move closer. even how you sit and stand in your everyday life effects the peformance of the neurological system. sry to tell you guys but slouching is hurting your performance.
It’s a shame that Ben didn’t apply these amazing neural techniques of yours to his training instead of just building a monster back squat and running maximally; imagine how fast he might have run.
Oh…wait.
Weight training is a general stimulus at best, to make the muscles involved in sport stronger. You integrate that into the nervous system and specific movements with sport specific training.
Trying to get clever in the weight room by being overly specific is not the way to do it.
Lyle
Moreover, it is more than worth the effort during strength training to look at types of exercise in which involuntary movements can play role.
What type of exercises would these be?
Yea for real. I will be a dick here for a minute:
[dick]
You think all these elite sprinters are doing these magical fairy training methods and spending extreme effort in technical precision in the weight room ala Jay Schroeder? I think not. Have you ever seen great sprinters/jumpers train? I have and they sure as hell don’t have perfect awesome great form in the gym. Hell did any of you guys ever see Walter Davis squat for example? Not picking on him but it’s not perfectly elegant. Have you ever seen how Brauman teaches lifting technique. SWEET LORD it is not the utopic model you seem to feel is so so necessary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU4v77UD6O4
Ben’s training was far from optimal. He ran 9.79. Mike Powell’s training was far from optimal. He jumped 8.95. Your training is optimal and you run 11.
[/dick]
all of this over low bar squats-wow.
u guys are missing the point… i realize this is charlies sight and ben was he baby but even charlie will agree you to exceed the performance of others you cant do the samething. how about training like milo of croton. he was the greatest olympian of all time u kno wut he did, squats with a baby cow everyday till it was full grown (legend ofcourse). the point is guys you want to do the same old thing. you dont want to evolve training.if ur saying to urself “man hes stressing onver one little thing” then yes i am and u should be to. what it tells me is you dont want to best, and im not talking about being th ebest in the world i mean the best you can be as an indvidual. lol just cause ben didnt do it does that mean it cant be valid. well shit ben didnt use vibrational training but it still can beenfit an athlete. ben and the way he trained should be a point of departure not the destination. that goes for any great athelete. you take a look at what it took to get him there and then you try to better the method. if not you or anyone will never exceed his achievments, that is unless some gentic freak comes along who can increase their squat a 100 lbs by jump roping.
my friend weight training may be a genral stimulus for you but i promise u it isnt for me. ben had a given genetic potential. dont you think if charlie got him 50 years later he would have trained him slighly different because of the knowledge he had gained in that time. do the same old thing get the same old results. i dont understand why thats so hard to understand. im not knocking charlie his work is amazing the results speak for themselves but he knows as you should kno that as time progresses training evolves becomes refined. so yes ben may have benefited from this. do u really believe that training as it is done now is really how it will always be done? change evolve keep what is good shed what isnt. im not trying to dishonor charlie with change im trying to honor him as any coach would be proud to kno that his work is the foundation or a contribution to a greater body of work.
very good points, people only see one way and all other ways are wrong. its like a cult.
u dont kno wut i run but thats besides the point as its about individual achievment. if a person is trained from a 15 sec 100 m to a 11 sec 100 m didnt he progress more than a person tha twent from 10.8 to 10.3. u guys are using ppl who are already great to make a point, but thats not inconflict with what im saying. u build off of them to reach a higher understanding a higher ability.
Well whenever someone has smashing success using the methods you propose, let me know.
No going from 10.8 to 10.3 at times can be harder than going from 15 to 11, going from 15 to 11 you can do almost anything to get better. Going from 10.8 to 10.3 requires more skilled coaching. What do you think takes more skill going from 10 to 9.8 or going 12 to 11, come on.
And just because your trying something new doesnt mean your correct either. Great try it, but give me data that validates it.
Oooo ben used a squat rack to do his squat, well i’m going to not use a squat rack so i can depart from what he has done. That doesnt make it better.
If you find some way that bens training was flawed then attempt to do it better, thats a different story, but just doing something different and saying blindly that its better than what was done in the past is not correct either.