Lactate Threshold Training

whatever she likes to run the most.

i think i ran around 20 400’s at 17 last season, and it could have easily been alot more, so don’t worry about a single digit # of 4’s.

400’s are supposidly bad for youth development, blah blah, but several US junior olympic horses in the long sprint didn’t burn out and fade away at 19, so i wouldn’t worry about that too much. slogging through crazy training sets always has a greater impact than a few races.

also, coming from a sprint end makes the longer races of the 8 and the 15 alot more lactic and oxygen debt heavy, espically if you don’t throw in a actual long run or anerobic threshold run in training. not that you should throw those in for a 13-14 year old.

as an aside, a 2:30 is realitively faster than a 63. either way, until you hit high school training and racing shouldn’t be of the meat grinder variety under any circumstances.

Thanks for the replies. :slight_smile:

Keep the training the same but (assuming she enjoys it) let her run 400s but not too many! Remember that the key to greater speed for her will be in drills that are exactly the same as for 100m runners- flying 20m drills, etc. - and NOT in a higher volume than a sprinter would do (speed is speed).
The tempo can stay as you have it.

enjoying a 400. bah.

which was what I was unsure of…how many is too many? :confused:

The speed work is done with full recovery and adjusted to how she is at the time with plenty of ‘speed’ and low volume as outlined.

Given the choice of a 1500m or 400m she will most probably go for 400m, given full choice she wouldn’t run at all and just ride horses instead :stuck_out_tongue:

Noty a fan of “racing” 400m for kids. Maybe when she’s late 15 and has done a number of months of things like 150 out to 300m and some split sets like 200+200, 250+150 etc, only then ease her into the race. But she needs to go in with her speed up and she needs to learn how to run relaxed and at a race tempo she can survive.

Seen too many kids distressed and in tears after blowing up in a 400 and never going back to it, even despite perhaps that could have been their best event. The scars tend to last.

Thanks for confusing me :o :stuck_out_tongue: your post covers some of my fears and time frame. So you think stick with what I had planned? 1-2 per season till then and focus on 800m with the 1500m as a change up. She most definitely isn’t keen on racing over 200m so we cover that in training.

This is her first season running with seniors so it has been a good learning environment and she is starting to get the hang of 800m for example that SB was yesterday and splits were 75.68 & 74.27 and it is only .06 outside her PB.

John, I have very little experience “training” kids. But I’ve “coached” a few. The three I coached all qualified for world junior championships, but by then they were around 16 or 17.

What I did was try to watch them extremely closely and I tried not to let them experience much pain at all. I got them fit enough to sprint a bit and strong enough (through drills, short hills etc) to hold their their form for longer into a race. They qualified on that sort of a preparation.

I never thought much of junior stars. I felt the main objective was for them to get enjoyment and/or fulfilment out of their training and competitions. My long-term aim was to keep them interested in the sport through their teenage years until they were physically and mentally mature enough to sign up consciously and conscientiously for the type of persistently hard training necessary to make the international arena as young adults.

I was feeling a bit depressed the other day, so I called Lifeline.

I was put through to a ‘call centre’ in Pakistan.

I explained that I was feeling suicidal.

They were very excited at this news and wanted to know if I could drive a truck or fly an aeroplane…

KK,
What was meant by your comment I have very little experience “training” kids. But I’ve “coached” a few …it appears to be condescending. I trust I have misinterpreted it. :mad:

My questions come to ensure I am minimising pain and long term harm while still providing adequate progression. M has already indicated that when she leaves school in 4 years time she will stop athletics to pursue her studies and passion for horses, in the meantime she will give it a decent go and I’ll try and help. She may change her mind and frankly I don’t care either way so long as she is happy and healthy.

Please don’t misconstrue my questions as those of a pushy parent, far from it. Encouragement, support and help aren’t the same as being pushy. I am often criticised by other parents & / or coaches for not pushing her more. So far this season she has skipped School Nationals and a major age group meet as she didn’t feel like going and withdrew from a rep team next week as there is a show jumping meet, athletics is a distant 3rd behind horses and school.

Does anything change if you know that the kid will stop training after high school (which I think is M’s case?)
Correct me if I’m wrong John, but you want to see her full potential until she’s 18, because you know that she would probably quit afterwards, hence your “curiosity” to test her at the event that you think she is strongest.

Kitkat… :stuck_out_tongue: I am trying to catch any relevance of your last post into this conversation, but I’m enjoying the randomness :cool:

I never read your last post before I posted mine, so you’re partly answering that…
But i’m still wondering about the “curiosity” factor I mentioned

NAH JOHN, SORRY ABOUT THAT. IT DOES LOOK BAD THE WAY I PUT IT.

I was just sort of responding to a wider audience, not so much to you because you know what you’re doing and would only do the best by youngsters, especially your own kin.

By your reply, it’s sure your daughter has things in good balance.

I suppose I was thinking about the loonies I see at the track, dragging their kids out there and you see them trudging around in 40C heat rep after rep in a way that is numbing to me, not to mention the poor little kid. And you can put your house on it that those kids will leave the sport as soon as they’re independent enough to do so.

This could be a potentially interesting point of debate. If this is true, it certainly expands the avenues which could be taken to improve performance, especially for those who do not tolerate high intensity particularly well.

So, how far from the “time on the clock” can you stray and still get the benefits, as long as the effort is there?

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/running_workouts.htm

KK, what do you think of this guy’s article?

When I competed in track in 1988–1992, we did what we were told. I don’t know anything about “block training” or “CNS.” So I can’t give any educated advice on where these workouts fit into a training cycle. All I know is that they killed me, and I can’t imagine one or more of these workouts not being beneficial to a large number of athletes. I have read numerous posts on the web from people who make their living training athletes, and I wanted to share my experiences so that you young guys might pick up a trick or two from the elite coaches I’ve had the pleasure of training under.

These are conditioning workouts. I’ve performed them on the track, street, in a park, and on a golf course. They are pretty short so intensity of the work internal is the key.

I’m going to list the work interval followed by the recovery interval in parentheses. Here is a list in ascending order of the worst, most annoying track workouts I was stupid enough ever to complete:

Two minutes (1 minute rest), 4 minutes (1 minute rest), 6 minutes (1 minute rest), 4 minutes (1 minute rest), 2 minutes: The intervals are run at a medium hard pace. This workout was designed by Rolf Krumann and Paul Schmidt of western Germany. It is basically a rest/pause time trial. They devised it as a workout to help 400-meter runners wishing to move up to 800 meters get in some quality distance work, which they aren’t accustomed. I suck at distance work, and this workout helped me to gain some much needed overall conditioning. It could benefit most athletes. You can manipulate the intervals anyway you want. For example, I preferred to do 2 minutes (1 minute rest), 3 minutes (1 minute rest), 4 minutes (1 minute rest), 3 minutes (1 minute rest), 2 minutes.

One minute hard (1 minute easy): Essentially you warm up (for me usually a mile run) and then nail 1 minute hard followed by an easy 1 minute jog. In my younger days, I tried to maintain a 60–70 second, 400-meter pace for the 1 minute hard interval. Now, my goal is not to hurl in front of my neighbors. I absolutely suck at this. It is one of the most basic running workouts, but it kills me. I think the most I ever did of this crap was six sets. Pencil neck distance runners can do it all day. Most athletes or powerlifters hoping to increase some GPP could benefit from as little as 2–3 sets.

Three minutes medium: 1 minute hard: 10 seconds all out: This creator of this workout, Loren Seagrave, claims it hits all three energy systems. I think he means the lactic acid, glycogen system, and oxygen system, but don’t quote me. An example would be:

3 minute jog at 8 minute mile pace

1 minute run at 4–4:30 mile pace

10 seconds all out

The 10 second burst after 1 minute hard is a real gut check, and it sets you up for a challenging 3 minute recovery into the next set. I think the most I’ve ever done of this is about six sets, and I covered about three miles. Any athlete could get a good workout from as little as 2–3 sets.

Two hundred meter (1.5 minutes rest), 400 meters (3 minutes rest), 200 meters (1.5 minutes rest), 200 meters: All intervals are to be done faster than the athletes current 800-meter pace. This is actually a scientific way to predict an athlete’s 800-meter time. It is probably only a workout for track athletes, but I included it anyway because I don’t know who you guys coach. I dreaded this on the way to the track, and I actually couldn’t believe I finished it.

Three hundred meter (brisk 100-meter jog), 300 meters: This workout was a staple of the training programs of Brooks Johnson, the former Stanford and US Olympic track team coach. It is the hardest, most lactic acid inducing workout I’ve ever done. The 300-meter sprints induce lactic acid on their own. The 300-meters almost back to back with a quick 100-meter jog recovery are horrible. Remember, these 300 meters are run hard even though they are back to back. Johnson advocates doing three sets of this nightmare. The first time I tried it, I did one set and it took me half an hour to recover enough to walk to the car. I don’t think I ever did more than two sets. If there is one speed endurance workout you should have your athletes do, this is it. It tests speed, speed endurance, sprinting form, and guts all at once. I was surprisingly able to match the time of my first 300, but the second 300 was an exercise in concentration, sprinting form, and the will to improve.

“Here is a list in ascending order of the worst, most annoying track workouts I was stupid enough ever to complete:”

Having read the workouts, you won’t get any argument from me that one would be stupid to attempt them. They are illogical as a session for a sprinter.

Eg: The 300m/1min/300m x 3 are basically 600m (x 3) split runs for distance runners. It’s something a group of AFL boundary umpires might undertake (Aust Rules). I would never recommend it for an athlete wanting to run fast 100’s, 200’s or 400’s.

Hard to imagine Loren Seagrave would recommend a 3min run at 8min mile pace, then a 1min run at 4-30 pace then an all out 10s run. That would be tempting fate.

I’m not a big one for mixing extreme ends of the spectrum - middle distance and an all out sprint within the one training session. Particularly if the middle distance run precedes the sprint.

Be careful to judge what is a gut check and what is a brain check. Everything here is counterproductive to sprint results.
Remember, Brooks once reportedly told Steve Williams to warm-up from dead cold with a 47 sec 400 before his sprint sessions. I didn’t believe it till I heard it from one of our club athletes who was at Florida State when this went on. he was told to do the same warmup and he immediately went from 49 point to 54 point in the 400 hurdles. As he was a senior, he told brooks to FO and went back to normal training and ran 49 point again. I also saw Evelyn Ashford go to the track, tie up her spikes and run a 54 sec 400m as her warm-up session the day before the 83 World Championships. Needless to say, she pulled up the next day and I told Brooks what I’d seen and he got angry and extremely defensive. At that point I remembered the previous story and realized that it must have been his idea!
When he was at Stanford, he got Canada’s best 3000m/x/c girl at the school. Within a couple of weeks of arriving, she won the x/c title based on the training she’d done in Toronto. Brook’s workouts were soon absolutely killing her and her Toronto coach phoned him to discuss workouts. He was rudely dismissed with Brooks saying; “Are you forgetting that I made her win X/C??”
By the time of our national champs, she was so gaunt we had to take her to the hospital!
Thanks but I’ll get my training ideas somewhere else.

The first workout we did at VCU was 6x300m under 40 seconds with 30 seconds rest. I was running with 147-149 800 runners. I lead the first two but by the last one the girls on my team were beating me. From what I hear the coach was cursing my name.

What Seagrave is prescribing is called a “dynamic run.” The one that’s outlined is for a 400m hurdler or 800m runner. As I remember it there are 4-5 permutations of this workout designed for different athletes/events. The ones for the 100-200m runners are much milder. Yes, Loren does have his athletes do them, as does Dennis Shaver the current coach at LSU, but it is only done in GPP.

As for Brooks Johnson, he is a madman as far as I am concerned, but to say that CF would never ask an athlete to do a 600m is not correct. Have you seen his L-to-S program? There are in fact 600’s in there and he would advise to split these (300+300) for many (most?) athletes.

My 400m athlete performs better in rounds than in once-off races. We prepare for a once-off race in 4 weeks time - will there be any advantage in running a 200m the day before or the morning before the race (in the evening)?