15 years. No more than 150m per rep. The total vol. will vary from one individual to the next. Full recovery as well.
But there are other ways to do this. I just read an article w/Dan Paff on how to train L.A. threshold by doing 4-5 sets of a block ladder 10m,20m,30m,40m from blocks. I have never tried it but it it does work, it would be kind a sweet for us cold weather folk where space is limited.
I’m not asking about a certain athlete, but in general, when is it ok to start lactic threshold work. Now some has said 15 years old 
.
So, is there any certain answer, or is it between 15-17 years old?
Start @ 15yo FOR SURE.
Its in the CTFS and a ton of other literature besides Charlie’s. By 17yo you will miss the boat
No, you wouldn’t miss the boat, at least from what I think I know. From what I’ve read here, endurance can be built just fine. Lactate Threshold is so people can handle the Lactic acid better. You wouldn’t miss the boat, at least under my understanding. I would like others imput on their thoughts on the age.
JUST an update on Oldspeeder’s progress in 2006: He has to reset his annual goal - coz he just ran 59.6sec for 400m indoors at the young age of 59. Respect due, respect given . . . 
RESPECT all tha way!!
Kit Kat,
What is your view on this, what age is the lowest you can safely start for lactate threshold. People here have said 15-17years, what is your view on it?
By miss the boat I meant you will have to go back and train them for something they should have started at 15years old. I’ve never seen a HS senior who has NEVER done some sort of Lactic acid training/Special Endurance. At least the upper tier kids. The scrubby ones never receive specific enough training. They are too busy doing shit loads of intensive tempo.
Read total training training for young champions by Tudor Bompa and CTFS. You will see it there in black and white on what the age should be. The simple answer why that is the desired age is because the metabolic systems are not developed enough to handle such stress. Now thats not to say there wont be exceptions to the rule. Some might be able to handle it some wont. Looking back at myself as a 15yo many many moons ago :), I would collapse after 1x350 or 2x150. But I could handle Special endurance at shorter distances. So it can be highly individual.
Hope you dont miss the boat
Actually, this isn’t about me, its just me looking for an answer to the issue .
I have done lactic training before, although I will be more into it (depending on what my schedule looks like). Just looking for the lowest age for lactate threshold work.
So, does everyone agree that 15 is the age to start lactic threshold training? Kit Kat, PJ, others?
nycjay01, not trying to disagree with you, just looking for second and third opinions .
I concur with NYCJAY, but I would add that from experience I wouldn’t introduce heavy lactate tolerance (ie 200+200 or 300+150, or 400m racing) until the athlete can comfortably handle full recovery sprints up to at least 150m.
The limits of speed seem a bit like the horizon in that the closer you come the further it recedes.
But there comes a time when the athlete is relatively comfortable with something like a set of four reps from 120 to 150 (or thereabouts) off full-ish recovery. Their pulse is back under 130b/min pretty quickly (a few minutes) and they look steady (not weak) in the body (able to achieve triple extension of hips, knee and ankle joints in the vertical plane at top speed).
When they’ve been able to handle a session like that over a decent time span (maybe six weeks), then I would think of introducing some lactate tolerance training if it was appropriate to their needs.
But I have limited experience working with kids. I had a couple of 16-year-old girls win national under-20 titles for 200m and 400m hurdles respectively and qualify for the 1992 Seoul world junior championships (where they bumped into an out-of-form young Marion Jones, coincidentally).
I had been working with both girls since they were 13 and probably introduced a bit of lactate threshold (once a week and pretty low reps) when they were 15 going 16. But technique was always my guiding safety control.
The question remains: Did it retard their ultimate speed development? The answer is probably not, but both girls were out of the sport by their early 20s, for different reasons, (one got too tubby, the other had a chronic foot bone problem and had to quit. She went on to become a successful physiotherapist).
So in my own experience there was no way to assess whether their speed was damaged by introducing lactate threshold too soon.
I think the way I introduced it was pretty sensible and safe. I was very careful about monitoring pulse and watching closely for signs of fatigue and technical collapse.
If they showed signs of technical breakdown during a run, I would call out to quit the run. But I used to do that with even the Olympians I worked with. I have never seen a benefit from flogging a dead horse, so to speak. kk
KK,
I know this was proably covered earlier in the thread and I actually took 10 pages of notes on this thread but can you answer one question for me.
At what point in the year do you typically begin lactate work? You mentioned in your above post you dont do lactate work until they can handle 4 reps all out of 150m. Is this only for younger athletes or for the other athletes you train? I was under the impression that in the both ends to the midddle concurrent approach that intensive tempo (ex. 5x200 rest 2’) turns to split runs and split runs turns to special end II (250’s300’s, 350’s) and on the other side of the spectrum we start with accel with turns to max velocity and later speed endurance and this is where the both ends meet. So if it was done that way then the int tempo at the begining would entail some lactate work with even more during the split runs before speed end is even being done.
Do I have this right?
Exactly right.
Semantics trips us up sometimes. I try to use the simplest words but may yet be guilty of confusing people. My apols.
In short, I consider 5x200 as lactic, also the long hills, also 300+150 etc. So if it’s long enough, and fast enough and if it has a back-up component (and adheres to the two previous ‘rules’) then you could call it lactic work.
Kitkat1,
Ok, here is my GPP schedule (early season) for February and March.
This is more like a sample week, but it gives you an idea about my stuff. I have a plan on how I will progress my times to lower times, etc.
Here is a sample week:
Mon:
7-5x30m Rest: 3-5 minutes. (Here I will lower reps and raise rest). Also, when I complete this, either by GPP or earlier, I will move distance up to 40m.
Weights
Tues:
Wed:
2x500 (60 sec 400m) Rest 15 minutes
3x 200 Time: Feb: 35-34-33 Rest 3 minutes
Weights
Thurs:
4x300m 45-46sec Rest 5 minutes
3x200 Feb times: 35-34-33
6x10second tire pulls (10 sec rest)
Abs (optional)
Fri:
1x350 Time: fast 15 minute rest
4x200 28 seconds Rest: 5 minutes
Weights
Sat and Sun rest.
Also, on the rest days, I prefer them to be Sat and Sunday.
I think the schedule is fine, and most all of it has a progressive plan behind it to get a 50 second (or better) time by the late season (June-July). That is something I think I was lacking before.
Also, after this, I have a Mid season and late season plan.
Are these different sessions as indicated by the numbers or all done i nthe same sessions? Im just confused because I see Feb on some.
Sorry, let me clarify.
The numbers are seperate of training for that day, all done that day.
As for the “Feb”, that indicates times for that month. There are different times for march. Just ignore them really.
you have 8 x 200m at 70% in 35 secs
then later on 3 x 200m at 35-34 pace?
there seems to be alot of the same pace set in the reps…
with the 4 x 200m why are you going at 28 secs and 5 mins if you are chasing sub 50?
should be working on coming home in 26 secs and not sure of your age but perhaps start with 3 min rest before working down to 2 min rest.
also if you can train sat try a 2 on, 1 off, 3 on, 1 off formula… recommended by kk to me along time ago with great success for my athletes
I would rather keep the sat sun setup.
As far as the time thing, I’m working up to times. I start off with those times, but they go down to the end of the season with a 50 sec in mind.
The 35-34-33 will be 33-32-31 around the beginning of midseason.
All of this I got from Clyde Hart, I just changed the order around to fit a high intensity low intensity scheme.
When doing reps between 28+ it doesn’t seem to make much a difference the track surface I’m running on. However, it is very hard for me to do 200m repeats at any pace faster than 28 on gravel. Any suggestions?
Any suggestions?
Don’t run on gravel. 
Maybe try grass.
Kitkat and others - I PLEASE want a reply - before you go to bed!! I think 8 hours difference between our countries??
In short, my athlete made a LOT of mistakes in the race over the weekend. He admits it was his own fault. 46,6 once more … and NO lactic at the end. Although - he still struggles a bit with the last 50m.
Brilliant in the 4 x 400 relays afterwards. Details later.
NOW - the BIG question: There is another meet this coming weekend, a week before Nationals. On the one side, he needs races to get competition fit. On the other side - do you think we must rather wait for Nationals (3 rounds)? And race and rest the next 2 weeks? (I will send the programme for the 2 weeks at a later stage - for comments!)
The one advantage that we have is - and I think it’s a BIG one! - is that MY athlete can normally handle rounds … some of his competition excel only when it is once-off.
I have to give an answer this evening re the race over the weekend. I am WAITING for your response!
Thanks!