mypr:
100 11.00 +0.5
200 22.12
400 48.84
400H 51.60
i can’t clock all times because the group coach is busy with other thing.
workout times. 180 went in 21.6, 150 in about 17.8
PJ: COULDN’T it perhaps be that she simply burned up her energy package earlier rather than rationing it out to enable her to finish more impressively. She did go through in 22.4 and 34.1 in her WR 47.60. You know there is only so much fuel available. It’s just a case of how you choose to distribute it. She simply crushed all opposition in the first 350m - not unlike Michael Johnson in some ways.
I think if you have an advantage (either speed or endurance) you should address your weakness, but you should train to your strength and compete to it. In Koch’s case, that meant go hard and go early.
By the way I was at the track for the 
85 World Cup and I spoke very briefly with Koch after that race. I asked her if she had a pain in the butt 
. She smiled, wide-eyed :eek: and said “no, nothing” and then the DDR goon squad moved in and escorted her “away”. :rolleyes:
I’m not able to help you in the first question never seen you and this indoor track, to enter in further details is impossible for me.
As for my workout example you got it right.
Kratochvilova reached a unique load in her workouts. She started athletics late and in early '70s, she was a 400/800m runner as well as long jumper. In the late 70’s she cancelled the 800 and improved dramatically her 100m while increasing the volume of all the aspects of her training. By 1981 she did 11.09 21.97 and 48.61. In 1982, on the basis of this incredible volume alone, she managed to run her first 800m in many years in 1:56.59. The following year, she ran the WR in 1:53.28 without pace maker and opposition in a race which wasn’t planned. Without the 1984 boycoot which hammered her psychologically god knows what she would have done.
Lucky you 
On the videos she looks like perfectly well after the 47.60, as in much of her race, like in Stuttgart’86 48.26. Doesn’t breath, no apparent pain, raise arms, big smile, gentle jog…
Thanks pierrejean. Interesting stuff.
This seems unbelievable when after most 54s races my athletes collapse in a heap for 20min and refuse to get up!
Perhaps when running these times (Koch):
-
The event is faster so there is less pain from 6 sec less lactic irritation???
-
She is coming down from such a speed that during the last 100m it is almost like she is freewheeling - just trying to keep the legs going fast enough so she doesn’t fall over - as opposed to my athletes who all look like thier feet are sinking into hot tar!
I ran my 400, did quite well, 60.2, ran VERY even splits cuz I SLOWED the first 200 down, when I arrived at the 200 and went to pick up, it felt like someone shot me through a cannon, much different than last summer when I went out way too hard and nearly crawled home, I’m sure I was a tad conservative but I never ran near a 2 seconds variance before, was not even tired at the finish. I’m sure with more experience that first 200 time will automatically come down, but I’m elated and near my goal of sub 60 at 59.
Oh, Did the pre-race day warm-up and 60m day before and it had no ill affect at all, going to take a couple of easy days and continue, next 400 in 2 weeks. Thanks for your advice and help, KitKat, Charlie, and all.
I posted this to perhaps inspire some people on the CFTS board, you see I just turned 59 and have recently moved up from the short sprints to the 400, my goal is to run my age before I turn 60, I have read and re-read everything posted on this lactate threshold topic and it works, certainly unlike the open and college sprinters on this site I have to make adjustments; ie, recovery, but it works if you are willing to work hard. My favorite workout is the 2(200-200) off 2 minute rests, plus the 300/150 off 30 seconds, they really get you ready for the 400, when you get to the Meet and run the first 200 properly, you will be amazed at how strong you will be, I used to be afraid of the 400, it’s never easy, but read through the lactate threshold thread and go to work, thank you Charlie for starting this site.
That’s inspiring, Oldspeeder. I still hope to be running that fast when I get to that age! You are the man… Keep it up…
Oldspeeder,
When we advise people to stay with the short sprints and fully develop their potential there before moving up to the 400 we didn’t mean for you to stick with the deuce for 58 years!
Wonderful achievement. You’re my hero. Good luck for the rest of your season. By the way, when are you moving up to the 800? kk
Thanks for the comments, 800 is on the horizon after I achieve my goal, that should be interesting, 
What would be the lowest age one could do Lacate Threhold safely, just out of interest?
From nanny69’s post on the last page, I assume that it is 16 or 17, am I correct or is it lower?
I think the basic idea here is that you want to develop your short sprint abilities to your max potential, then bump up to the 400m. I would say 17-18 is a safe age.
Thats a bit late my man!
We’d have no extraordinary quarter miles in the high school system. :eek: 
I’ve received a couple of calls for assistance after recent 400m races in a couple of different countries have not gone quite to plan. Sight unseen, as they say, it’s really hard to be too prescriptive, but what I’ve written to follow is based upon common problems I’ve encountered and worked through with 400m sprinters over time. The forum in general may find this of some interest, although much of it has appeared somewhere on this thread or in the archives. . .
If your main 400guy has done the background work with intensity, his general fitness should be good.
Stick to the normal rhythm of training now. That will help keep things calm and under control.
But in the longer reps (300) and the backup reps of the split-runs (200+200; 300+150), emphasise “rhythm”, “relaxation” and “technique” - particularly emphasise “sweeping” through the bend entering that third 100m of a 300m.
Talk of “sweeping” to keep his action tall and open (let the elbow open wider than 90-degrees during the backswing). Also talk of running “through” instead of ‘around’ the bend.
Make sure also the sprinter doesn’t ‘lead with his chin’. Keep the head literally ‘on his shoulders’ because it otherwise causes too much tension through the shoulders which can prevent the shoulders swinging easily around the vertical axis (spine). Tight shoulders refer down and can prevent the hips rotating (around the vertical axis) which results in a shortened and tight stride which burns too much fuel and will not deliver a fast time.
He needs to “carry his momentum” out of the backstraight “through” the bend and get a free-ride at least to the waterjump before having to ‘work’ again. This alone should get him close to 46-flat or under.
[I wrote something more of this in a thread named “running the bend” (or a name like that)]
Some ‘elite’ coaches/athletes may take exception to my suggestion above that this athlete can get a carry from the 200m through to the waterjump before having to work again.
They will have watched the great 400 champion making a winning move from around the 200m start area. But they are well conditioned, vastly experienced 400m competitors whose preparation has probably been perfect.
The guy I’m specifically writing for has very limited experience in the 400 and even less training background, although he is a fine sprinter. When he gets more racing and training time and form under his belt he too can start his ‘move’ earlier.
I watched some of the guys in Barcelona have a real ‘go’ from early in the backstraight.
But right now for this particular athlete making his final and decisive move in a 400m any earlier than the waterjump might prove to be a big mistake. His “move” will last only about 150m because based on what I’ve been told about his specific 400m training/racing background that’s all he’s got in his tank right now.
Now further emphasise that when he decides to ‘go’ he must “dial up” the power. Never ‘flick a switch’. It may feel great to flick the switch and it may look great, but it’s a costly way to consume your limited supply of fuel. So no sudden surge. The “flow efficiency” and the fuel economy of what you’re doing should go a long way to rectifying the problem.
Remember, your guy is very classy. “Form is temporary, Class is Permanent.”
Given he’s been out of comp for some years, hitting 46 first back should encourage you both. You just need to manage the time-line and don’t pass any of your stress to him.
kk
Haha, true, but that doesn’t mean ALL of them use lactate threshold work in their training. Many of the top HS 400m runner posses a great deal of speed (Gettis, Carter come to mind… both 10.4-10.3 and 20.xx guys)… But then again, many do train with the longer distances… hmm…
Thank you kitkat!
The problem is - CG is about 9 weeks away, and even a coach tends to get nervous now. I PROMISE to stay calm!
But - I still have no answer to the question that I ask myself … WHAT NOW? The next race is in a week, he has to qualify (45,5) in 3 weeks time …
How do I plan? I have basically 4 training days - Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. Wednesday must be a rest day; Thursday only warm up, RM, warm down, Friday race again.
Something like this? Saturday - Tempo (to recover); Sunday - Speed; Monday - Combination of Special End and Speed End (e.g 300m, 200, 150 OR 250, 150, 120, etc); Tuesday - Specific 400m work (200+200 OR 300+150). Is this not too hard, if he runs on a Friday?
Tuesday, e.g - do you think I still have to do 2 sets? Do I have to emphasise the short rest - 30" - or rather work on RM (like in 200+200 with 2’ rest)?
Another question - I think he NEEDS competition now, but I don’t want to go MAD and “over race” him. We have opportunities to race another two Fridays, then National trials a week after the last one. In the “pre trial races” - do both 400m’s? Would it not be too much … 3 x 400m in a row and the next week 3 races as part of the trials?
As the Forum can see, I am on “hot coals” … PLEASE assist. The COACH needs assurance and a “pat on the back” now! Thank you ALL for helping!
Hi Sprint Coach, well done so far . . . pat on the back in the mail
Saturday - Tempo (to recover);
Sunday - Combination of Special End and Speed End ( 250, 150, 120, etc);
Monday - REST;
Tuesday - Specific 400m work 1 X (200+200) OR preferably 1 X (200 + 250);
Wed - REST, spa, light massage, chiropractic alignment, stay off feet.
Thursday - warmup - race modelling the bends with at least 1 x rolling start 60m at 400m race-pace, warmdown (no significant lactic buildup, no running at 100%, just back it off slightly - even for the rolling 60m)
Friday: Race
REGARDING TUESDAY: Do ONE set. Race-pace rhythm for the opening 200m rep, then if you wish take up to five minutes, but then from a rolling start (at least three steps) he can smash the backup 200m.
If you want to be a bit more creative, you can start the backup 200m from the 400m start, extend the distance of the backup rep to 250m and in so doing he gets to rehearse the technical aspects needed to sweep through the critical race zone from the 200m start through to the waterjump.
If the prevailing wind is too adverse, simulate the race bends but start the reps where the wind assists.
He can then take a full-ish recovery and finish off his session with some more “race modelling” into and out of the bends but just tempo effort, paying attention to triple extension when the hip, knee and ankle of the left (inside) leg align (obviously in the vertical plane).
[Another question - I think he NEEDS competition now, but I don’t want to go MAD and “over race” him. We have opportunities to race another two Fridays, then National trials a week after the last one. In the “pre trial races” - do both 400m’s? Would it not be too much … 3 x 400m in a row and the next week 3 races as part of the trials? ]
You’ve got to do what you’ve got to do. This sport is a gamble anyway.
Does he need to run 45.5 just to be admitted into the trials?
If he wins the trials but they’re held in shitty weather and he misses the time, will they not include him in the CWG team?
If the answer is No. Then you have the answer to your earlier question: He must race at least two of the three pre-trial 400m events and give himself the chance to run the qualifying standard. Maybe he will have to race all three 400m races.
While my own experience is that coming into the major meets athletes I’ve coached have run fastest after extensive lay-offs from 400m racing, we have still simulated race situations (lactate levels etc) in our own good time during training.
And US college athletes are forever racing all manner of individual and relay sprints every weekend during the summer and they keep turning up.
I know you are dealing with a new event, new training ideas, with an athlete coming back after years of injuries/accidents/illness etc so this is not addressed at you Sprint Coach . . .
. . . But . . . I’m forever banging on about the importance of the “time-line” and now people can see why.
No-one needs this kind of pressure coming into a trial or championship.
Far better to set your season clock to hit a bit of a peak earlier rather than later. If you are worried then about carrying that “peak” form into the championship a couple of months away, what you do is put the handbrake on by creating split-runs where you tempo the opening rep to take the heat out of the backup run, although not the effort. This approach is suited to the 400m where the need to develop “endurance at race speed” can take a long time to develop, many months in fact.
Pat on the back, what’s that :rolleyes:
[ Does he need to run 45.5 just to be admitted into the trials? ]
No, the 45,5 must preferably be run AT the trials.
[ If he wins the trials but they’re held in shitty weather and he misses the time, will they not include him in the CWG team? ]
No, he HAS to qualify. If the weather is not good, the selectors (and the Board) will take that in mind and MAYBE he will be in the team. We don’t want to go for “maybe” … at least, he has to qualify BEFORE we go to CG.
At this stage, we stay with the initial planning - he will run another 400m this coming weekend. We will start with the tapering in the week of 30 Jan.- thus miss the meet a week before Nationals. But this decision will be finalised after the next race. Maybe he will need the extra competition …
It does not count if he qualifies at an earlier race - and 3 other athletes qualify at the Nationals … even when his “qualifying time” is faster. NATIONALS is the IMPORTANT one.
I have watched a video taken of his race - the BIG problem was that he worked TOO hard from the beginning of the back straight up to the 350m mark. The 1st 200m time was about 21,8, the 300m sub-33 BUT his energy distribution was COMPLETELY wrong. His hips were low, he was HARD on the ground, there was no “easy running” or “coasting” whatsoever.
The positive - from the 50m mark, I could see that he was tired, but he kept his rhythm … although it was slow.
The solution - RM!!!
This afternoon we went to do tempo - to recover. What a difference! Good running form! After that I massaged his legs, he went into a hot bath (with Epsom salts). At least he is not complaining about stiffness - he feels positive about next week.
[ Pat on the back, what’s that ]
Just telling me … “You’re NOT so bad!!!”
Thanks once more for your input!
BIG Pat On The Back for sprint coach: your analysis here is precise, your responses astute and positive. Your plan is good. Please keep us posted
Ok, some people are saying 16, some 17, and some 18 years old. What is the starting age of starting lactic threshold training?
comancho
what is the training background and age of the athlete you are asking about?