Lactate Threshold Training

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There are MAJOR differences between the programme of Clyde Hart (previously printed here) and the one of KitKat. BUT - I don’t know if Hart exactly tells what his programme looks like??

I have been part of a training camp where Hart and Michael Johnson were present - and some of the questions asked, were not answered. They are MASTERS in avoiding direct answers! What they occasionally said, is that Michael did not like doing pure speed work. They have concentrated more on a type of speed endurance session - called “speed makers”.

At this stage, I have success in KitKat’s recommendations of combining the longer runs with “speed” at the end … to “copy” the feeling of exhaustion at the last 100m of the 400m.

According to Hart’s programme, he concentrates on “intensive” only - 2 x 200 (22") for Michael (PB 19,3) was definitely not special endurance/speed endurance! I would like to see the REAL work that they do!

Thanks once more KitKat for the effort to put everything here on the Forum. I am LEARNING!

Have a few questions about the planning - but I will talk about that at a later stage.

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I was not trying in anyway to imply that there were or are similarities between the methods that KK has employed and those used by Coach Hart.

As to Coach Hart being forthright about what he does, I have found him to be very responsive to my questions, both in person and over the phone. If you weren’t getting the answers that you expected I would conclude that the problem either was with the questions themselves or it might have been due to MJ’s presense. He is not not an easy fellow to be around.

No they never do anything that looks like Specific Endurance. Rather they build lactate levels more gradually with moderate velocities and shortish recoveries. I’m saying it’s right or wrong only that it works. Rock and Merritt train this way as well.

The 2x200 in 22" doesn’t seem that tough for someone of MJ’s ability, but it was done with a 2’ recovery. Actually I’ve seen them do this session at sub21.0 for the first rep and @21.8 for the 2nd.

No they don’t train for speed per se. This topic has been well covered in other threads though.

In all candor I do find more in common with what KK does than with the Baylor method. As the former said though, it’s horses for courses and adapting to the situation and the athlete is what is most important.

-AC

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Hi & hmmm,
So this is where “lactate” went.

Good to see activity.

I will do some sampling in-season when I get back from vacation in a few weeks…but most of it is common sense for a sprints coach. The races and time trials are diagnostic by intent…that is, I take the splits and watch closely and DISCUSS WITH THE ATHLETE post-race at length every aspect of the performance to identify where the weak spots are.
Then the training for next two weeks or so has a bias toward rectifying technical issues and shoring up deficiencies exposed in the trial/race .

I would say the in-competition weeks were structured much like the Transition weeks, although as I said the sessions had a greater emphasis on race-specific speed development.

Competition was always taken up for a reason, to hit on one part of the race or another; to use to prepare specifically and aggressively for competition. Rarely for money as motivation. When tournament preparation was being targeted, the athletes would often race one day and then we would schedule a 300 or 350 time trial the following day in the same city to help simulate the physical and psychological experience of racing the rounds.

REGARDING the General Preparation phase, I mostly used a double periodised year with all the athletes and during the second GPP I often had only enough time to go into one 6-week cycle followed by a Transition period of 4-weeks before entering international competition in Europe or wherever.

The fact there was only 1x6w GPP in the second period meant that the athlete retained more of their speed from the previous periodic peak.

The first peak was set for the domestic nationals and was usually a “drop” taper, 10 days of mostly rest and a bit of speed and a lot of rhythm & race-modelling.

Then into a few days of comp at the national titles, then back into that single 6wk cycle of GPP + Transition.

So I would say that the athletes I worked with were usuallly no more than 10 weeks away from being able to compete internationally.

Of course when we knew there was no international competition coming up following the conclusion of the European season, we enjoyed the luxury of a more complete deconstruction-reconstruction afforded by a 2x6wk GPP (12wk total).
kk

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Had an PM inquiry from a coach regarding “gym” work for 400m sprinters. Hopefully this fine coach will not mind me posting a modified version of my reply, for the consideration of others with an interest…kk

GYM, for a while I thought you were getting into GYMnastics and I was really pleased. It’s therefore another issue for another day but it will develop multi-plane proprioception, structural strength (ie: enhancing joint stability as well as mobility) as well as flexibility (which we translate as “free speed” ).

Re Gym: I cannot give a daily program because it varied with the energy level of the athlete and the nature of the running program at the time of season. It was about coach and athlete self-monitoring on the day.

But in a nutshell the principles were:

1/Weightlifting is a Supplement, not a Substitute for running training (track or hill).

2/Multi-joint exercises were preferred over other options. (ie: we used Olympic Lifts when the athletes was monitored by a technically competent observer)

3/Therefore Free Weights were preferred over machines (although I really love some of the Keiser pneumatic equipment, esp the hip-machine, leg-press and hamstring-leg extension machine - NOTE the limitations in some of these machines, especially regarding glute involvement, were compensated for by hill sprints etc)

4/ Maximum Repetitions per set was usually six (6) - although in some warmups at very low weights of say 60% 1rm we would go to 8 just to get the blood circulating without damaging tissue as would be the case at much higher %1rm.

5/Maximum Sets were six (6) although that was done mostly if an athlete needed some cross-section development, and when that was the case the reps would be kept medium, say at four (4) reps per set but if the %1rm was quite low (ie: <80%) we would occasionally go out to six sets of six reps, but that was only during rehab or the early stages of an accumulation phase.

6/Percentage of 1rm, the vast majority of lifting was performed in the 85% to 95% of 1rm. During unloading or after a tough running session (ie hills) I would either dispense entirely with leg weights (ie: squats) or reduce the load and reps - just to stay in touch with the lifting movement patterns.

7/Peaking: We tended not to worry greatly about lifting huge loads because it was not considered significantly correlated to 400m performance. It was a supplement to our “real” training (sprinting). This may have been a mistake on my part but I doubt it because I always had sprinters return to the track ready and able of sprinting, not protecting themselves from injury because perhaps they had lifted too much the previous gym session. When “peaking” was attempted the athlete never trtied for 1rm, only ever 2rmax. This tended to prevent complete self-destruction. We always scheduled a peak around 10-12 days before the first round of championship tournament. This was usually a PB attempt at benchpress or a clean.

8/Lifting was done After Sprinting - because if you have lifted hard in the morning then there is bound to be some minor tissue damage. To then demand the athlete sprint is asking for serious tissue damage.

kk :slight_smile:

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I came across an LT article by Ross Dunton which comprised of a 5/4/3 200m session.

The whole idea is to start by doing 1 set of 5x200@85% with 45-60sec recovery to the best of your abilities. Once you are capable of doing that, you add a second set of 4 with 6min recover between sets. The end result is to 3 sets in total.

I know that 85% is in the Intensive Tempo range, and I’ve read that CF does not place much value in working in that zone. I’m curious to know from others if such a session is of value to 400m runners compared to a kk approved :smiley: 6x200 session with 2min recovery (one of my favourites BTW!!)

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I have a few thoughts:

Good luck getting a real sprinter to run more than one set of 5x200s.

But equally you can load up on any one session now and then as long as you compensate elsewhere in the schedule.

And almost any session can be made to fit if it is appropriate to the system in place. In other words, if you know where you’re going and how to get there, you can dabble with the occasional detour.

kk :slight_smile:

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kk In your transition phase you have on day 4 .Fly 300- 250 -180 -150-120.In this work out you dont want them to fight for speed. This I understand. But im guessing you want them as fast as possible while staying relaxed. Then on day 5 you have the 2x2x200 work out. Did your athletes have trouble doing those 2 sessions on consecutive days. I am not sure but our kids (university runners 47-48)range might have trouble. But maybe not. Also would you hope for the times to drop in these sessions from week 1 to week4. Or would you pick a target time at the begining of week 1 and try to have them train at that speed for the whole 4 weeks .I think you said earlyier that you liked to get your people to stay in the same speed pattern for at least 4 weeks.

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Hi,

I should add that the Day 4 session above is also not set in stone. Depending on observations and history, sometimes the session will be run over shorter distances, for example: 260, 180, 160, 140 & 120.

But it’s Yes re Day 4. Don’t look for what’s not there. Give what you’ve got and stay within your technical model. It’s more of a toughening session transitting toward higher velocity work in the weeks ahead.

Day 5. The heat is out of this session. It’s really a strength type session. Tempo the opening rep and try to run just as fast on the back-up off two minutes. The opening rep needs to be a moderate pace, enough to generate some lactic, but the backup will release quite a lot more. That’s why you need a long recovery, up to 45mins is common between the two sets. Don’t attempt more than two sets because it will damage the quality of the next session(s) to follow.

I don’t push them during the transition phase. The speed will come when it’s there. It will come though. Sometimes it shows up in the Day 4 session, sometimes in Day 5 (expressed as the ability to run closer to even-splits or even neg splits because the opening rep is better tolerated as the athlete hardens up over time).

Actually never had a problem with the backup day. But we were cautious every day. We weren’t greedy, didn’t chase times. Sometimes you can tell your athlete is improving darmatically yet nothing is apparent on the stop-watch. But when you allow the athlete to freshen up, you will get your times.

I always reckoned the only occasion when time was important was on race day and even then the place was primary.
kk :slight_smile:

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Can you shed any more light on this type of session KK, ie where you got the routine from, what the aim is etc.

Its just that in a recent copy of the UK magazine Athletics Weekly, a coach attributed the vast improvement of their high jump athlete to some sessions which sound similar to the sessions you describe above. She got them from a ?German high jump coach.

Thanks

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Hi John,

And the German high jump coach would have got the exercises from a gymnastics coach.

I don’t want to make this stuff out to be anything special. It’s the most rudimentary elements of your garden variety gymnastics warmup.

We worked with a lovely Chinese fulltime pro gymnastics coach who gave us the easy elements of the warmup he gives his adolscent boys. By the way, you ought to see the six packs on those kids, and the arms. My God…and they’re all little kids, 14 and under.

He cuts us a lot of slack, but the athletes enjoy the session and finish a foot taller :stuck_out_tongue: and they feel ready to roll again. It’s all the stretching and all the exercises are performed in long positions. We don’t do much ballistic stuff because it’s a little dangerous.

But he has added some single-leg gentle bouncing in the middle of the trampoline - (one leg extended, the other bent at the knee with posture into almost a sitting position - then establish a little bounce without losing contact with the trampoline. Great for balance, fires up the knee and foot ligaments (proprioceptive control!) …

And of course there are the rolls and tumbles and combinations…

kk :slight_smile:

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Hi KitKat -

After an AWESOME WC in Helsinki (especially the 400m!), I am SO SO motivated to deliver a 44" male next year! At this stage, I am very impressed with the results of my athletes on your programme - the majority have completed the second 6 weeks of the GPP. The athlete with the most potential to become my first 44" athlete, struggled with his injury and started late. He is in the 2nd week of the 2nd 6 week cycle.

Now for a few questions regarding the transition period, PLEASE:

(1) No 20’ - 30’ jog in this cycle?
(2) How many 4 week cycles? More than one?
(3) The cycle will be completed at the end of Sept - what next? Back to the GPP? Or something else?
(4) Bearing in mind that our Nationals will be middle Feb and the CG middle March - please assist with the planning of the cycles up to the major meets: October/November/December/January?? Emphasis on??
(5) You said “no individual races during transition” - the first individual race in October then? How many 400m races will be the ideal?

Thank you very much, once more, for your valuable inputs made!

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Sprint Coach hi,

I’m assuming you’re in Britain? I need to know if you have any competition possibilities between the end of the transition cycle and up to your Comm trials in mid-FEB. Are you anticipating sending your 400m sprinters away for warm-weather training.

If you could post the competitions (indoors or elsewhere) available and prioritise them in order of importance (presuming the opportunity to gain a lane).

This becomes an exercise in deconstruction. Once you work out the important dates, the taper period you know (if you do know) your Comm hope needs (based on previous experience hopefully). Then you have your imperatives and you can count backwards from there to today.

It would be nice for your athletes to come up and do some time trials or get a lowkey race for a week or two after they emerge from the 4-wk transition phase.

But given October is probably marathon month, I’ll assume there’s nothing doing for the sprinter types and that the weather will be getting brisk.

So, acting without the info requested above, I would suggest that if you are happy after the transition cycle and you can see some leg-speed coming back, I would give them a week of Rest-and-Test and then roll back into another 6-week block of general preparation.

That would take you through to about the third week of November.

But in this (3rd) 6wk block for the year, I would modify the reps (not the sets) and look for a bit more quality - or at least look not to shatter your athletes.

For example, instead of running hills (or the equivalent) such as 3 sets of 2 x Long Hill (@360metres) with jog down recovery between hills and up to 45 minutes between the three sets, I would still run the first rep of each set as a long hill, then jog to the bottom, turn around and walk about two-thirds back up the hill and sprint a shortened backup rep of say 120-metres. I would jog slowly back down to the start of that 120m section and repeat at least two more times. You may wish to shorten the hill to 80m. Or you may opt to do something like 360m long hill + 120m hill, 80m hill, 60m hill. And the session could be made up of three such hill-sets.

Similarly with the other standard track sessions. The backup reps distances get shorter.

Anyway we can discuss details as the time gets closer. In the meanwhile, ask your athlete which sessions or sets he thinks work best for him and we can eventually emphasise those in a modular type of approach to constructing his program as we move forwards.

If after this 6wk block we have finished the third week of November, then it would be time to go back into another four-weeks of transition. That takes you to week 3 of December. Which leaves you seven weeks to the Nationals (six if you then go into another Rest-and-Test week).

The transition will become and extend into a much more targeted 400m-specific mixed phase leading through to the taper.

I don’t like to get too far ahead. You need to keep a close watch on your athletes, make sure they don’t get too fatigued. Keep the massage and whirlpool/spas and/or hot-cold baths/showers going, or whatever you can do to enable them to be in the best shape possible for the next training session.

How they recover dictates what you can do next up, as you know.

But what worries me is training 400m in the British winter and trying to get some quality into the running because of the unusual siting of the 2006 Comm selection trials and the Games themselves.

That last six weeks will need to see some pretty hot sprinting but it’s got to be a SAFETY-FIRST approach. Dead heroes are no use to anyone.
kk :slight_smile:

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Normally we have a rest day on a Sunday - my “day 7”. No races. Do you recommend a “self-organised-race” for my group or a rest day? Is the 4 x 400m relay important in the transition period? On which other day will it be appropriate?

We start with the 4 week cycle tomorrow - with my best athlete. We are VERY excited! (The others completed a 4 week cycle already. As they are not on the same level as my best athlete, I have changed the programme somehow … for them to be able to complete the sessions!)

Another question: What will happen after the 4 weeks? 1 week of tests? Or a repetition of the 4 week cycle IMMEDIATELY? Or back to the 6 weeks? (The 4 weeks will end 12 Nov - the first “big” meeting mid of December.)

For interest sake - We have league meetings already - with NO competition whatsoever! At this stage my athletes dominate the scene … on easy 100m’s and 200m’s!!

Thanks once more for the detailed information!

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IT’S NOT important to race during the 4-wk transition period. IT IS important to keep to the pattern of Rest and Train.

The transition period is the time your athletes are most vulnerable to injury under my program. Maintain the two-days-on, one-day-off, three-days-on, one-day-off rhythm of work to rest.

The rest days are your life insurance policy. Better to be extra safe than extra sorry.

The relays are a nice low-stress pathway into competition. Relays can follow the four-week transition cycle.

I would caution against racing from the blocks in a major event the first weekend after transition. If you can resist your Federation, it is in the best interests of your athlete to be protected from severe competition for at least two weeks after the Transition cycle.

But if you Must compete straight off Transition, then try to run just a 4x400 or a 400m. I would avoid racing 100m or 200m if your athlete is going to need (or will try) to run a lifetime best in order to win the shorter race(s). It’s an unnecessary risk. There are much bigger fish to fry in the New Year.

If you are planning to compete in mid-December and you Transition ends mid-November, I would give your athlete one light week. NO Time Trials in that week.

Then give him a mixed program for two weeks and then freshen him up in the week before the mid-December big race.

I wrote earlier in this thread about transforming the GPP and Transition work into more Race-Specific 400m work. Take a look at that.

But in essence you need to stick with the same rhythm of days-on and days-off. You can emphasis speed development on the day following each rest day. That gives you Two Speed Development Days Per Week.

The Day After the Speed Development Day should be either Tempo or a 400m-Endurance-Specific session.

A 400 E-S session might look like 2 x 200+200 where the first 200 of the set is at 400m race pace and the backup 200m rep is as close to the same time as possible. Eventually your athlete will be able to negative split.

For example. The aim may be to run the first 200m in handtimed 21.2sec from a standing start. To do that, he should be able to run at least 20.4 from a rolling start (tailwind etc).

So as a coach, your task is to keep moving him toward a 20sec flat ROLLING start 200 on his Speed Development days.

That will then give him the basis to be able to comfortably run 21.2 to 21.4 for his opening 200m of a 200+200 set AND then still be able to backup Two Minutes Later with a ROLLING start 200m in sub-22sec.

Other 400 S-E sessions I’ve used include 2 x 300m+150 off 30sec (for lactic tolerance); 2x4x150m with jog or walk diagnonal recovery between reps. Or combination sets and/or sessions.

Keep us posted. Any questions fire them to me here asap and I will answer asap. Best wishes
kk :slight_smile:

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I just re-read the begining 5 pages of this thread, very good stuff. When Dazed and elars21 got into an argument, well not really, but anyway, they brought up the distinction between Lactate Threshold and Lactate Capacity. My distance coach, brought up during the year an interesting Lydiardian (Isn’t that nice? he’s got a good name. it’d be hard to say: accordin to the Charles Francian theory…) concept that an athlete’s Anearobic energy system could only be developed to a certain point, wheras the aerobic energy system (in the form of capilarization) can be developed for a very large number of years, before it comes even close to peaking out.

What I was wondering, now that you know where I’m coming from is that if you were to use Lydiards anearobic theory in reference to lactate THRESHOLD (the ability to… blah blah, see Dazed post on page 3 or 4, he defines it well) or is Lydiard referring to the anearobic capacity, only? Or do I have the whole thing wrong?

If lactate threshold can be developed over time, with no significant diminishing returns, than it wouldn’t be a bad idea to start doing workouts in the winter that would help my 800m in the spring. The capacity, I’m almost sure is best started in the early spring and is then developed throughout my season, as the 800m is mostly anearobic capacity, but having a big threshold REALLY helps for that first lap.

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Palmtag - At least somebody else is interested in “Lactate Threshold” … at a stage I thought the communitcation will remain between Kitkat and myself!! Due to winter in other parts of the world? Are you recovering? We are WORKING here!!!

A little feedback - I am busy with the first week of the 4 week “transition” cycle. With the 2 x (200+200) yesterday, my potential 44" athlete ran a 45,2 and 45,5, with a 30’ recovery in between. WE ARE ON OUR WAY!!!

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I’m in the championship phase of my cross country season right now, sprint coach. We’ve got a good team coming together, 6 guys under 16:50, which is looking good enough for us to get on the podium at sectionals, and bring us to the state meet. (League<Section<State) I’m in shape for a 16:30-16:38 performance, but I’ve been havin’ a rough time in past couple races. I want to run very fast this upcoming track season, but it’s going to take a lot of work, and the answer to this question can change around maybe 7-10 workouts I’m going to be doing during the first 12-16 weeks.

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Best tranquilizer for a sprint thread? A healthy shot of 800m… :stuck_out_tongue:

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If you are looking for a good “lactic” w/o here you go:wouldn’t recommend it unless you are a 200,400 or decathlete. And not more than three or four times a Mesocycle (3-5 week training cycle) - because of the intensity level and the recuperation time that it costs afterwards. Great workout for the indoor or outdoor season…4-2 weeks before peaking.
2x(2x200) @ 95% (6min rest; 10min rest)
Any questions or comments?

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When you have time - go through ALL the pages in “Lactate Threshold” … the knowledge here is like GOLD for any coach and/or athlete! The session that you are talking about, forms part of kitkat’s proposed programme (transition period). Very scientifically worked out.

Enjoy reading!