Lactate Threshold Training

The Forums Fundamentals
301

Yes, high lactic for sure but it’s a different kind of burn to running 1x300m at 100% which everybody knows but sometimes people forget that both kinds of work can play an important role in 400m performance.

Not much knowledge is new. Most has been tried and tested, accepted or rejected over time. I “borrowed” 6x200 with jog 200 recovery from an interview by the great aths writer/statistician Mel Watman with Lee Evans in an ancient Athletics INternational wrap-up report of the 1968 Mexico Olympic Games athletics program.
As Mike Agostini (great 50s sprinter) once advised me when he passed on what he thought might help me as a young sprinter (eons ago), “nobody owns knowledge, my coach passed it on to me from his coach and I’m passing it on to you to use and pass to the next generation”. That’s the fundamental spirit which is the basis for the success of the CF forum! kk :slight_smile:

302

On thing is sure, it was not lactic-free for her (the woman who ran 10x300 in 57-47sec), i’m certain that the little fatigue she showed after her reps wouldn’t have been there if the pace had been constant through the workout. She told me that she never does over-distance, and she uses similar work with 300m or 400m distance at slow pace, that’s the longest she ever runs at practice. And she didn’t like much this workout.
With this workout and at this speeds, we are in a cross world between lactate capacity and aerobie power. As you said it really depends on what the training plan looks like.

However, i don’t think it is for learning the sense of pace this is a very well experimented sprinter who has been around for +15 years, but i don’t feel comfortable to give her name.

303

Somewhere in the mess that is my office I have the Bud Winter book, So You Want to be a Sprinter, with Evan’s schedules. As I have said in the past they were heavily influenced (written?) by Stan Dowell, Evans HS coach. Dowell also coached Andre Phillips in 1987-88, his gold medal year.

As I remember it, Evans worked his way down to the 5-6x200m session from 28sec. range. The difference was that the training on either side of this session was not drawn back such that this session would be the focus of the week.

304

PJ + KK:
Over the years I’ve learned to be very careful not to “dose” athletes with high blood lactate on consecutive days. Some of this is from my own (modest) experience as an athlete, and some is through my own study and research. Granted the combined effect of low reps/high intensity is tougher on the system than getting there with moderate reps/moderate intensity, but all the same, there is a negative impact on CNS.

As an aside I have some sessions by Italian sprint coaches from the early 1980’s where they were hammering away at lactate tolerance on a daily basis. They were obvioulsy heavily influenced by Vittori and his work w/Mennea. Interestingly, 20 years on he (Vittori) use very different methods.

-AC

305

About Mennea, it was lactate and also very high volume of work. Nowadays, i don’t think anyone still use such volume. Kratochvilova used also very high volume of work, probably the highest ever achieved by a long sprinter, but the greatest advice she gave was that one should avoid synthetic tracks whenever it’s possible. Juantorena on the other hand kept the volume very low (just like MJ) and had a rythm of 2/5 days between lactic workouts. With my runners, we keep 7 to 10 days between lactic tolerance workouts depending on how much the “damages”.
I would be very interesed to read Evans’ schedule, is it possible to post it here?

306

I’ll post Evan’s schedule this evening my time (0-dark hundred your time :wink: ).

Mennea’s volumes were VERY high, but the intensity was moderate for the most part. My point being that there were not sudden spikes in lactate levels, but rather a gradual rise.

The schedules that I have were apparently written by Preatoni was worked closely with Vittori. Interestingly there was a concerted effort to build speed in the 1st phase of training, followed by high density lactate tolerance. Preatoni had one 400m athlete do very well on this program for one season and then it was downhill (KK’s mineshaft?) from there. I think that there is a lesson here.

I spoke briefly about the value of training off track on the concurrent training thread. I agree with her. The again her loading was way to high for an athlete running without “assistance.” As with Mennea the 1980’s were very different from where we are now

-AC

307

The question is how many women are ready to accept workouts like 18 x 60m in 7.8 on the grass or 8 x 1000m in 3:30? We can’t understand Kratochvilova’s achievement if we only see “assistance” instead of complete dedication to her sport in an Eastern Europe country 20 years ago. On the other hand, i’ve seen some 51 or 52 female performers having a volume of work way too high compared to their performance level. So much work and pain for (relatively) low results.

I have the chance to coach an incredibly gifted young 400m runner, maybe she will approach Kratochvilova’s performances, maybe not, but one thing is sure, she runs with the heart, and that’s the trademark of all the great 400m runners. Courage and pain tolerance need to be a gift and shall be worked through the years.

308

I know of no one who could prosper with Mennea’s or Kratochvilova’s sessions without “assistance.” I know some tough guys who have tried because they had coaches who were copycats. In a sense I think that you have answered your own question.

I think that athletes come with courage and commitment. Yes it can be developed, but only so far, and it is found in fewer young people than in the past. If she has it, your are a lucky coach.

-AC

309

I actually don’t think that Juantorena’s volumes were that low when one assesses the intensity. No speed whatsoever in his program which is why he was an alsoran in 1980 IMHO.

On MJ, remember that in the UC college system there are time limits on the amount of time the coach and athlete can be together in the off-season. Hart’s program (and all the copycats out there) are designed with this in mind. Short intense bouts of high lactate work on consecutive days. Remember what Clyde said when he was asked when he let his guys recover, “during the 23 hours a day that they aren’t with me!”

-AC

310

OK PJ here you go, Lee Evans’ training according to Bud Winter.

Early Season Main Work
Mon: 3x660yds with 660yd walk/jog recovery. (ed: no time given)
Tue: 110yds-220yds-330yds-550yds-330yds-220yds-110yds Walk/jog same distance that you ran for recovery.
Wed: 10110yds with the short sprinters. Start season at 15 seconds and drop 1 second a month until you can reack 11sec. for all 10. (ed: I think that these were sprin the straight walk the turn)
Thu: 3x352yds. Start at 44sec. drop 2 seconds per month. Rest is 15minutes between runs. Drop time until you can do 3x352 in 38sec.
Fri: Starts and finishes. Finishes were full 220’s. Do six with a walk back for recovery (ed: KK is this the basis for your 6x200m sessions?)
Sat: 2x60yds, plus 1x150yds, plus 2x352yds, all for time.
Sun: Jog

Late Season
Mon: 2x660yds dropping to 2x550yds very late in the season. Untimed
Tue: 550-330-220-110 or 5x220 (neither session is timed)
Wed: 2x60yds (timed), full recovery then 2x352yds (timed)
Thu: Starts + finishes (4-5); before big meets take 2 days rest.
Fri: Rest
Sat: Race
Sun: Jog or rest

311

Actually Hart moves through his 200m progression much faster than this. They never went out beyond 12reps to my knowledge running them in 32sec. in flats on grass. The recov. would begain at 3min. and then drop to 2min, for the duration of this phase, 4-6 weeks depending on the year and the athlete.

They then moved to 10 in 30sec. with 2min recov. By now they were on the track but still in flats. As an aside MJ did them with 1:30 rest if memory serves. This generally took them to the Christmas break.

After the break they did 8x200 in 28sec. w/2min rest. The 6x200 in 26 sec. with 2min breaks started when the indoor season was in full swing and re-appeared some outdoors.

The 3x200m session fast was saved for very late. Sometimes it was 2x200m REALLY fast which I have witnessed. The 3x200 session was sometimes a cutdown (24-23-22). All of these were done with 2 min rest which is a Hart dictum.

Interesting MJ (and Wariner I expect) almost never wear spikes in training.

-AC

312

This is great AC, thanks for taking time to post.
Yes I suppose this shows where the 6x200 session came from, but in the interview I read with Evans he was specific about running the reps in 23sec zone. He said he was jogging the recoveries but they got to the stage where they seemed like they were running them too. :smiley:
kk

313

Well this looks pretty general compared to what Winter outlined for the short sprinters. In fact it was kind of an add-on the the book on the last page. Evans by all accounts never stopped training with Stan Dowell his HS coach. San Jose State was like a neighborhood school for him (unlike the other guys). I suspect that this was Winter’s interpretation of what Evans did.

-AC

314

AC, I was told by two ex Baylor athletes that what ever pace was being used in the 200m repeats the same pace would be used for all other runs. Is that what you observed?

315

Generally speaking I think that this is accurate, at least during the fall. When it closer to competition there is definately more variation in pace.

316

Thanks Athletic Coach for posting Evans’ schedule. He advocated overdistance once in an interview, saying that when his coach asked him to run 3 x 550, he tried his best to do it, and almost once a week he ran 550s, because he thought it helped him to be more comfortable on the 400m race. Egbunike said that the only advice Evans gave him was to have his fastest 100m section between 200m and 300m, a thing that rarely happens (above all in Egbunike case lol)! I presume it was more an intention than an actual goal.

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I 've received some PM questions about warmup for 400m races, so decided to post on this thread (just to get it back onto page one again, heh :stuck_out_tongue: )

WARM UP:

It’s such an individual thing. My only insistence was that at some stage late in the warmup the atghlete did at least one flat-out flying sprint of at least 20 metres and preferably 60m where s/he lit it up for a bit before easing out of the run before generating any lactic.

The warmup usually started with a lap or two of very slow jogging, then some calf, quad, hammy and hip stretches (not assisted, never did PNF before races or max velocity sessions), then some athletes did the usual technique drills.

The top male did not do anything “mechanical” because he felt it ruined his rhythm. He was the athlete most in touch with his body that I ever worked with, so I think in his case that was the right call (on dumping the drills).

After stretching, some run-through over 100m - usually about three with walk backs in flats. The runs built towards race rhythm.

Then sit down, some small hip, glute stretches or trigger therapies (usually with one of those half golfball rubber things).

Then spikes on. Do at least one 100m buildup on the straight, then go to each of the turns and work on 400m race rhythm into and out of the bend until the balance was good and the left side was tall, arm rangs was good. Shoulders down etc.
This gave the athlete the chance also to check prevailing wind conditions at each point of the race (at 100m, 200m and 300m marks of the 400m lap).

There was always then at least 15 minutes rest time before going to the start line.

For tournament when we knew we had up to 45mins from end of formal warm-up, then transport to another track, then into marshall and holding pen before being allowed onto the track, we rehearsed the timing and worked on staying warm by doing little bits of exercise when possible. The tournaments also had a strip of track beside the call room, so athletes could exercise and just go for a loosing/warming run when they felt they needed to.

Some athletes did do block starts before the race, but the top male and top female did only three-point runs from the ( blocks ) area and worked on race modelling - getting through from the acceleration and transitting into full upright posture by the time they got to 50 or 60m around the bend - usually where there will be a javelin runup crossing the circular track.
kk

318

I have worked through this thread (emphasis on the 400m) very thoroughly and have the following questions. (At the same time, the thread will be on page 1 again, KitKat!!).

Would you please assist me in the following -

(1) Quote: “Two speed days per week during the speed-power period of GPP 2 x 6 wk block and thereafter every week.”
Question: Does this mean that there is ONE speed day in the strength-endurance phase and a change to TWO speed days in the speed-power phase of the GPP?

(2) “I only use three drills”.
Question: Which ones do you prefer?

(3) What exactly are the differences between the strength-endurance and power-speed phases?

(4) Quote: “This (200+200 off 200) was the real test.”
Question: Please explain. Firstly a 200 at full speed? Recovery time? Then 200 rest 30" 200? Just one set? When? Second 2½ weeks of the GPP? Or in the test week?

(5) I want to start tomorrow with the 10 month preparation to the Commonwealth Games next year. I have divided my first 2½ strength-endurance phase in:

Mon - Speed
Tues - Special Endurance: 200’s at the 200m time trial + 2"; WT
Wed - Stretch/Massage
Thurs - Special Endurance; WT
Fri - Functional Strength
Sat - Tempo OR pool; WT
Sun - Rest

Comments?

Furthermore - What about aerobic (10’ - 20’ jog) during this phase - for the endurance part?

I am VERY positive about everything that I have learned in this thread - our goal 44,2 early next year!!

Thank you, KitKat!!

319

Hello Sprint Coach,

I used the general prep to develop virtually everything EXCEPT pure speed. We stayed in touch with high velocity running during the so-called speed-power cycle, but not with the sort of training we did in the nine months which followed the 3-months general prep period.

During GPP I tried to develop the strength to finish the last 80m of the race. We developed the base, then maintained and further developed a thread of that strength at even more race-specific levels during the pre-season and through the in-comp period.

So the so-called strength-and-endurance cycle of 2-1/2wks went like this:

Wk1
Day Session(s)

  1. 2-3 x 4x150m

  2. Long Hills + Weights

  3. Rest (or 1hr Gymnastics) 

  4. 5x200 + Weights

  5. Long Hills

  6. Jog (15-30mins) + Weights

  7. Rest

Wk2

  1. Sprints ladder 350, 300, 250, 200, 150, 100, 60, 50, 40, 30 - slow walkback recoveries.

  2. Jog 15-30min + Weights

  3. Rest (or 1hr Gymnastics)

  4. 2 (300+150) + Weights

  5. 5 x 200

  6. 2x5x100 tempo runthroughs, walkback + Weights

  7. Rest

Wk3

  1. Long Hills

  2. 3x3x300m + Weights (Upperbody only)

  3. Rest (or 1hr Gymnastics)

4 Rest (or Warm-up, warm-down) +NO WTS.
5. Track fast, relaxed 300+4x60, 250+3x60, 200+2x60, & 150+1x60.
6. Jog 15-20mins + Weights (Whole body)
7. Rest

Wk 4 (Repeats for Wk5):

  1. 300+60,50,40,30; 200+60,50,40,30; 150+60,50,40,30 (30sec rest between long rep and first short rep)

  2. Field Circuit (about 6mins) + NO WEIGHTS

  3. Rest (or 1hrs Gymnastics)

  4. 300+150, 150+150, 100+80, 80+60, 60+60 (all 30sec b/reps; full rec between sets) + Weights.

  5. Jog 15-20min

  6. 3-6 (2x60m Skip, 2x80m Sprint Buildups, 2x80m Sled Pull or Equivalent Light Resistance)

  7. Rest

Wk 6
Rest & Test Wk

  1. Rest

  2. Warm-up, Warm-Down

  3. Trials 300m (stand start), and 150m. + Weights (Lowest Reps Possible).

  4. Rest

  5. Trials 80m and 200m + Weights (As Normal, all exercises, for volume at 80-85% of 1rmax)

  6. Rest

  7. Rest

REPEAT 6-WK CYCLE STARTING FROM WK 1.

Now that’s the basical outline. You have to monitor the athlete closely. I don’t want to be prescriptive with times because every athlete will have to vary, depending on training years and ability and commitment. No-one is going to go from being a 50sec runner to 44sec in one year (unless they have previously been close to 44sec).

I make zero demands during the first cycle. But I use that to calculate (also based on PBs and standard 400m models) what MIGHT be appropriate target times for the reps for each individual.

The second time through the cycle, I ask more of the athlete, of course with consideration to all the things posted earlier on this thread.

As I said, “absolute” speed is not really being develop. There is too much volume even in the speed-power cycle to classify the work as 100m develop-type stuff. But as the athletes get fitter, they can deliver some fairly impressive speed through those sessions - especially over the years. The best male 400m runner I had the honour to work with started to run some ridiculously quick times during some GPP sets. Then again his body adapted over the seven years (double periodised) we worked together.
kk :slight_smile:

320

Of course KK you know that you post will induce even more questions :wink:

1.) Did the max. velocity work follow directly after the GPP schedule that you posted?

2.) If so, how was is structured/integrated?

3.) As we had discussed on another thread would you be comfortable putting ahead of this GPP model, assuming of course the correct build-up?

4.) What did SPP look like structurally?

Cheers,
-AC