Most guys and most athletes in general who come from the 200m side (rather than 800 end) of the 400m tend to have a fairly big blow-out in the second half of the 400m race. That is to say, their differential is not two seconds or less; more likely it is heading toward 4seconds.
It’s probably a more painful way to run the 400m and it suggests either the athlete has gone out too fast, or they haven’t worked enough on their 400m-specific endurance.
Bearing in mind your background (once was a 22.9 performer into a hurricane) you may fall into the “get out fast and hang on” category.
If so, you may think about cracking 55 by going out in 25 and coming back in 29. Does that sound do-able?
Of course if you go out in 25sec you better be able to run at least 24sec one-off from the blocks. Otherwise the task can be achieved by improving your comehome time through time-targeted training (ie, repping 200s in 28-29 off 2mins). But you will still need to develop a good 300m and the ability to “lift” (triple extension) when charging through the third 100m out of the bend into the homestraight. I"m adding that lest anyone think running a decent 400m is all about being able to tolerate rep 200s. The rep 200s is 800m type work and the 400m above all else remains a sprint.
kk
So me being an 800 type runner witha 51.3 pr, I should do this kind of 5-6x200m workout in speeds of about 25.8-26.5 seconds? I wish I had a rubber track to hit these splits exactly in spikes etc, but I’ve got a gravel one. For the quarter I’ve noticed about a 1.5-2 second conversion for a full 400m. I run 51, and average 53 on our track. Should I make the same kind of rough conversion for the 200’s? say 3/4-1 second each 200?
Just a few questions. Great posts Kitkat, Nik, Chris, etc.
Edit: My goal for the 400 is to split a 49.8 for our 4x400, which could help us score some points at the sectional meet.
Yes Palmtag, add time to compensate. Your times may be slower but you’ll get stronger. Just make sure you get into a tall position on the track and hold it together. If you can’t hold it, maybe look at taking a little bit longer between reps but still try to pull together at least five 200s, especially during the GPP and early in the pre-comp phase.
I guess I better do some testing to see where I am with things. (ie: 200m testing)
I’ll probably do that in about 3 weeks.
I am wondering if I should try to get in 23 second 200m shape and then look at specific 400 training in the fall after my speed is already in place? Then I could run 200/400 indoors.
When I ran 22’s for 200 I believe was in the 36-37 range for 300m. (I dont know if that helps or not haha)
Speed AND Endurance are like the Ying and Yang of the 400m. One without the other will not give you a great outcome. You need both. But for sure Speed predominates by far in the essential requirements for a good 400m. The challenge to program theory is to facilitate both in your training. They are compatible but you need to create the training structure within which both can develop. This is one of the things that makes the 400m fascinating to coach. It is not an “exercise in compression” like the 100m, more like an exercise in balance (with as little compromise as possible). kk
This thread is absolutely brilliant largely due to the input of KitKat and pierrejean.
The concurrent approach that KK outlines has been something that I have toyed with for a while, but never fully implemented. Scared or lazy I guess and neither is a valid excuse.
Hence, I’m going to begin a new thread on the topic and hope that all of you will give it a look and contribute as you see fit.
This will be done in the coming weeks/months!
If you take a runner’s PB (a sprinter or even a distance runner) from 30m, 60m, 80m, up to 1000m translating them into average speed in m/s and if you design a curve with it, you’ll see that the top of the curve will peak between 120m and 200m is most of the case, unless the runner doesn’t have accurate PBs. In general, the 150m is the distance where the average speed is the greatest. As i explained earlier in this thread, during the training year, we use short to long progression for accel/max speed/speed endurance and long to short progression for special endurance. That’s why in the last part of training program (pre-competition and competition phase), the progression of max speed in one side and special endurance in the other side will meet in speed endurance workouts with distance ranging from 120m to 200m. So far, personal bests or near personal bests have been set at 120m (and shorter distances) and 200m (and longer distances). The distances between will be covered in the next weeks, with hopefully same success!
I’ve been out for several days so i will needs some time to read the other messages in that great thread…
Hi PJ,
(Welcome home from the camp),
You have the data to back up your findings. I do too now (thanks to you). But even in the absence of the figures, observation during the coaching process indicates that if you want to work a sprinter over “longer” distances (longer than 100m anyway) while maintaining the highest integrity of mechanics (which assumes velocity as well) the best range in my experience is 120m to 150m and even out to around 180m before things start to unravel slightly.
Psychologically for the 400m/200m athlete, a distance from 120 to 150 is very comfortable. They can give effort and focus for the full distance, but if I asked them to do endurance over 250 to 300 I would see problems.
So that is why I have often created split sets such as 2x150, or a set of short sprints with a special endurance sprint up to 120 to finish a session.
I use multiples of 120 to 150 a lot in the tapering phase, when I’m trying to bring up speed and rhythm and a nice rolling, open action but still must avoid fatigue and any significant lactic buildup. I’m talking here especially inside the last 10 days.
Of course, it doesn’t always work out that you can avoid lactic. IN one case a guy really felt he needed to run a 300 time trial inside the last 10 days because maybe his confidence needed a boost, or maybe he felt he needed to touch just once more on the special speed-endurance element before the tournament. I debated the point, but quickly agreed to time the 300m because I trusted this athlete. However mostly the final stages of the taper was built around back-up or high quality rhythm 150s with decent recovery. Gabriel Tiacoh (LA84 silver 400m) liked the 150 as a fast tempo session also.
kk
kk or others,
i would like you opinion on a workout from a female 400m runner who is currently able to run 36.5 at 300m.
It was 10 x 300m with 3’15 passive rest, done on the track in flats.
The times were: 55, 52, 49, 56, 52, 48, 57, 52, 47, 52 seconds. Average 52sec, which is 70%. But why this differences in times (slow-average-fast and so on) ? What is the purpose of this workout? (It was the day after a speed cession, and the day before a day rest).
Was she instructed to run them that way (slow, avg, fast, etc.) or the runs just happen to turn out that way?
3000m volume of tempo is not unusual for a 400m runner. Being that it was done after a speed day, I would guess it is being used to flush the athlete out (recovery work).
Theone, she strictly followed her plans, and she had a clock with bips for pacing herself (her coach wasn’t there so i guess the workout was not that important technically and she is used to do it). My female 400m runner has run 10x300m at 52-55 pace earlier in the season with similar recoveries (in order to flush the athlete out for recovery just as you said), i was just wondering about the purpose in changing the pace with a 10sec amplitude?
Chris, at 70%, 10x300m isn’t that tiring, no worries you can try it safely
Hi PJ,
Just some thoughts: I like the session, a lot. But it may not be any more helpful than other similar 300m tempo sessions. We would have to know what is in the mind of the coach/athlete to see if they are accomplishing the benefits they wish to obtain.
The female athletes I have worked with have all achieved 3x3x300 in sub-50sec (on grass, in spikes) with 100m jog (about 1-minute) between reps, one lap jog between first and second set; one lap walk, then one lap jog between second and third sets. This was a routine session during the general preparation phase (although it came only once every six week cycle), but over the years all the senior athletes became adept.
[The top female I had the privilege to work with ran them all in 46sec to high-48sec on one occasion (on synthetic track) during a strength “wedge” following a one-month European racing season and six-weeks before going to an Olympics where she reached the 400m final. The top male did all reps under 44sec, with some dipping sub-40sec at his best, He hated the session but he also reached the Olympic final and ran his lifetime fastest marks in the semi and then (his second fastest) in the final.]
By varying the tempo in the session of 10x300 you described, the coach has obviously made the session tougher. The athlete may also shake up the neural timing system but there are better ways to do it.
It would be interesting to see where the session progresses. Maybe it collapses to 3 x 2 x 300 in around 45-47sec and so on.
Maybe the recovery times are reduced and the rep times remain the same, or conversely maybe the recovery time remains the same and all 10 of the rep times are brought down to equalise around the 47sec mark.
Then again, maybe that just remains the extensive tempo session during GPP and the coach is just trying to squeeze a bit more from the session/athlete? But for sure this kind of work helps develop the vascular network - the flush and feed system. And it is probably also good for “the head” in the confidence-building sense of having run 10x300.
kk
I used 6, building to 8x300m this past fall with an accomplished junior sprinter jumper (low-21’s for 200m). 47-48sec. on synthetic turf or grass in flats with 1:30min breaks. He found it to be fairly easy (but no, he didn’t like it).
I would think though (and I could be wrong) that a female running 46sec. in this session would start developing pretty high lactate levels as would a male going sub-40sec., even if it was Darren Clark
