Lactate Threshold Training

[kitkat1]

Hi ESTI
It’s hard to say without seeing him race and without more 100m segmental splits, but you are probably correct that he could get a faster 400m even based on where he’s at with his short speed (200m PB) at the moment.

There is a basic formula that you can run the first 200m in a 400m race no more than 1sec slower than your season PB for 200m. If your athlete can run 23.3 for 200m at the moment, he probably should try to go through in 24.4.

There is also a basic formula that the second 200m (back-end, come-home) in a 400m race is about 2sec slower than the first 200m. In a very well conditioned 400m racer, that can come down to around 1sec differential. But it can also blow out to as much as 3sec+ when a speed monster attacks the event without sufficient 400m conditioning or if they are just reckless in the opening 300m or so.

Anyway, if your athlete constructed his 400m opening in 24.4-ish, and if he could apply the basic 2sec differential “rule”, that would give him a model of 24.4+26.4 = 50.8 off blocks.

But there are many ways to ruin a 400m even by a supremely well conditioned 400m specialist. Taking the turns properly is key. As coach, you need to go the the infield and observe how he takes the turns. He should be sustaining Triple Extension as well as possible on every part of every bend. As a coach we focus primarily on his left (inside) leg. Look to see that angle behind the knee. You don’t want to see too much bend. They should be looking no further ahead than about 10 metres and thereby try to run the bend like it is a straight-line. That is the most efficient way of getting it done.

Also as a coach we need to get on the track and watch the athlete from behind as he eneters the turn (or exits it). Often an athlete will “drop” the left hip and sort of hunker down to accelerate the turn. We don’t want that. We need to encourage lateral stability across the hips. We don’t want any collapse on the left side (inside) lever.
Of course we also don’t want the athlete afraid of the bend, ideally we want them carrying their momentum out of the backstraight through the 200m start zone on the bend. Keep the momentum going, keep the left side tall, keep the hands/arms working (hands should reach shoulder level, but shoulders should never be “hunched”).

[RB34]

First week of fall:

M:lift
T: 14 x 200 @ :34 - 2:16 rest
W: 1 x 200 @ :34 - 5:00 rest - 3 x 600 (Big Loop) @ :68 - 400 speed (1:45) - 10:00 rest/Lift
Th: Hills
Fri: Form Drills - 3 x 1200 meter run on (Big Loop) @ 5:00 - 3:00 walk rest/Lift
Sat: TBA

[Nikoluski]

An interview with Clyde Hart at NSA can be found here: http://speedendurance.com/2011/03/14/interview-with-clyde-hart/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Speedendurance+(Speedendurance.com)#

[TaSsl]

@ESTI

KK,

My 400m boy just ran 51.6 in the open 400, and 3 days earlier ran a 50.2 relay anchor leg. He has improved his 200 from 23.7 to 23.3.

Yesterday we did 5x200 in 26 with 200m jog. He made every time. My thoughts are he is not going out hard enough considering his 200 efforts. Thoughts?

I wrote a post a couple of weeks ago, but I guess it got lost with the change on the server. I think that you commented before that your goal for your boy was a 49.50, but that in the competition he run in 23.5 and something around 37 in the 300 (correct me if I am wrong). I can be wrong, but according to what you said, I think that a more realistic objective time (at least right now) is 50.5. In my experience (I ran 51 when I was 16 and went down to 48 in 5 years) most of the times the problem that an athlete has is to try to run faster than he can at the moment. The pace is really important in 400m and I have felt that both starting too fast and starting too slow have always decreased the performance. I have races where I started at 24.5 with a final time of 49.50, and others where I started around 21.6-21.8 and finished at 49.00 (or even worst). In my opinion, knowing the pace in 400m will help him more than trying to go faster than he currently can.

I agree with everything that kitkat1 commented, specially on the problems when the athlete faces the turn. I have always slowed down (unconsciously) in the turn of the 200m only to loose more energy trying to accelerate later. The only point where I am not that sure is the first 200m of a 400m. In my best 400m I have started around 0.5-0.6s slower than my PB on 200, and for most people that I know (that trained for 400m) it seems to be true too. Of course, it could be that at that moment my 200 PB would have been better, and that’s why I could do it. At that moment, the +2s for the second 200m also applied to me no matter how hard I tried to change it.

[DMA]

I am coaching an athlete who wants to run 51. I have said he needs to run a 200m in around 23.2. As he is still developing his conditioning for the 400m I expect him to come through the first 2 in 24.5 and finish his last 2 in 26.5.

Last season he run a 54.5 off 3 months of training and went through in 25.5 for the first 200. He run too close to his 200pb, but the one thing I noticed everybody at that level didn’t run hard enough in the first 250 and couldn’t get him.

[TaSsl]

@kitkat1

Hi ESTI
It’s hard to say without seeing him race and without more 100m segmental splits, but you are probably correct that he could get a faster 400m even based on where he’s at with his short speed (200m PB) at the moment.

There is a basic formula that you can run the first 200m in a 400m race no more than 1sec slower than your season PB for 200m. If your athlete can run 23.3 for 200m at the moment, he probably should try to go through in 24.4.

There is also a basic formula that the second 200m (back-end, come-home) in a 400m race is about 2sec slower than the first 200m. In a very well conditioned 400m racer, that can come down to around 1sec differential. But it can also blow out to as much as 3sec+ when a speed monster attacks the event without sufficient 400m conditioning or if they are just reckless in the opening 300m or so.

First of all, I would like to thank you for the time that you spend helping people here. I really appreciate it and I am sure everybody else does.

I have been using your 400 method for a while but without continuity. Since I had several problems in my Aquiles + training alone + no-lights + no coach my training was… more complicated than what I would have liked. But after the Winter break I decided to come back. I trained for 3 months (-2 weeks with a big knot on my calves) where I did 2xGPP of your system, and then 3 weeks of your transition phase. For the moment, I am running more 100-200 (as Nikoluski suggested) mainly because I don’t feel that the 3 months are enough for the 400m run. I run pretty close of my PB in both 100-200 (11.16 and 22.26) while the only 400m was a disaster (49.99, although I have to admit that the fear had some effect). The feeling that I have is that it takes me too much effort to keep the speed, so it’s either all in or way too relaxed.

I am looking to extend the competition calendar (I have found competitions until the first week of June, hopefully I would be able to run until mid-July). Would you suggest to keep doing some transition weeks? If not, what kind of workout would you recommend for the competition phase?

I have also some questions regarding the GPP for next season now I have “recover” the spirit!!! :).

1 - I was thinking on starting to train during August with the goal of competing May-July next year. What do you think on doing a short-to-long approach during 12 weeks (I was thinking on trying Charlie’s method) to win some speed and then embrace your system? This will make August-October (CF’s method), November-January (GPP+transition kitkat1), February-April (GPP+transition 2 kitkat1). The reason of this approach is that I feel that my speed is limiting the improvement and I have never focused the training on speed. Do you think that it makes sense?

Regarding the GPP:
2 - Since my calves are delicate I tend to train on grass. Let’s say that my target time is 47.50, this will make a 24.75 in the last 200. How much time should I add to the target time on the 6x200 (or other training) when running on grass?

3 - When do you recommend to start working on track? My process is usually: grass (no spikes) => grass (spikes) => track (spikes) and I start with 1 day/week, then 2/days week… and so on.

4 - Most weeks have “tough” days (300-250-200-… or 2x(300+150)…). I am not sure of one thing: how should I finish those days? I mean, if I go as fast as I can on this days I would probably throw up and some days (maybe) not finish. Should the target’s time be something like 36+18 in 300+150, for example? Should I forget about the time and focus only on the form? I read that you say to don’t try to look for something that it’s not there yet, but… I think that I would relax too much.

5 - On hill days, you recommend 10% hill and 360m around PB in 400m. I have found a 5% slope hill and… I think that the faster that I ran was 330m in 50", and I wasn’t able to finish the 3 blocks. Am I missing something? My only guess if the times are correct for the rest of the people is that I am really weak running hills!!

I am sorry if there is any question repeated. I have tried to read through all the thread (I have done it 2-3 times) but it’s a long thread and I could have missed something.

Thanks!

[kitkat1]

Tassl

Little steps: Perhaps instead of worrying about your split times, you should concentrate on creating and holding onto “the rhythm of the race” which you would like to run. As a back-up measure, someone should take your rep times so you know how it feels to be running a particular pace.

The Hill sprint sounds OK to me. 5-to-10-Degrees angle of ascent is good. And 300 metres or longer is also what you want. Running in (long) spikes on grass hill or track is also good.

Don’t chase “speed”. How do you chase something like that. What you really mean when you say you want to run a fast time is that you want to find the right rhythm. When you relax into an appropriate rhythm then you get the time as a consequence. Slow rhythm, slow time. Fast rhythm, fast time (assuming mechanics and relaxation are optimal)…

As for next GPP, I’ll come back to you later on that. Let’s get through the current season and try to get some rewards back for the effort you have already put in.

PS : The races should help you decide what you need in training as you progress through your season. If you lack “speed” then do some more speed-type training and make sure you are properly rested before each high intensity session.

If you cannot finish your races, then make sure you keep some endurance training in your program. There are many examples of speed and endurance sets even in the GPP. Just take those and play around with them a bit, make them specific to your racing needs.

[TaSsl]

Thanks kitkat! I will left next season for later

Little steps: Perhaps instead of worrying about your split times, you should concentrate on creating and holding onto “the rhythm of the race” which you would like to run. As a back-up measure, someone should take your rep times so you know how it feels to be running a particular pace.

The main problem about the rhythm is… that I can’t be sure that the rhythm is fast or correct for the time target. Even though I can feel if I am running faster or slower most of the time, I don’t know the feeling for the best way of running and thus is complicated for me to reproduce (I need to feel something to be able to reproduce it). I don’t have anybody that can take rep times (maybe I can find somebody once in a while), but in any case, I will follow your suggestions and run mostly without checking split times.

PS : The races should help you decide what you need in training as you progress through your season. If you lack “speed” then do some more speed-type training and make sure you are properly rested before each high intensity session.

If you cannot finish your races, then make sure you keep some endurance training in your program. There are many examples of speed and endurance sets even in the GPP. Just take those and play around with them a bit, make them specific to your racing needs.

Just to be sure, do you mean modify next seasons training considering my limitations this year?

---

I ran this weekend, 100 and 200 again. Bad start in the 100, but I felt pretty fast after 30 meters. 11.15, which is SB. After this race I was exhausted, which is weird. A 100 have never made me feel that tired. In the 200 I had some pain in the Achilles and I felt the hamstring when I was finishing the turn so I relaxed “too much”. 22.54

This Saturday I have another competition and I am going to try 400 again. I think that I lack training to finish strong (I started training in mid January, with a 2 week stop for a knot in my calves) but I would like to try anyways. I am not sure how to focus the week, I thought on doing some tempo today (Sunday), some speed on Monday and something like 150, 300 on Tuesday. Any suggestion?

I have to admit that I am pretty excited (and surprised!) in general. I wasn’t expecting that after 3 years without competing and with only 3 months of training I could be back running that close to my PB. That might be the reason why I wanted to start “talking” about next season ;). Also, because I don’t have much competitions going on here, at least not that I know.

Thanks again!

[kitkat1]

PS : The races should help you decide what you need in training as you progress through your season. If you lack “speed” then do some more speed-type training and make sure you are properly rested before each high intensity session.

If you cannot finish your races, then make sure you keep some endurance training in your program. There are many examples of speed and endurance sets even in the GPP. Just take those and play around with them a bit, make them specific to your racing needs.
Just to be sure, do you mean modify next seasons training considering my limitations this year?

NO, ACT NOW. Every race or time trial should yield information. Use the information to adjust your training to address the shortcomings revealed by your most recent performances .

[TaSsl]

@kitkat1

PS : The races should help you decide what you need in training as you progress through your season. If you lack “speed” then do some more speed-type training and make sure you are properly rested before each high intensity session.

If you cannot finish your races, then make sure you keep some endurance training in your program. There are many examples of speed and endurance sets even in the GPP. Just take those and play around with them a bit, make them specific to your racing needs.
Just to be sure, do you mean modify next seasons training considering my limitations this year?

NO, ACT NOW. Every race or time trial should yield information. Use the information to adjust your training to address the shortcomings revealed by your most recent performances .

Thanks

I am interested in this concept. I (or my coaches) have usually focused only in increase the quality of the runs decreasing the volume without taking that much into account the last performances.

In my case, I am feeling pretty fast (2.8x in flying 30 and 6.6x in 60m standing), the problems I have felt during my races are:

• Bad start.
• Crossing legs: some cuts&blood on the calves.
• Last 50 meters on the 200.
• Slow start on the 400 (first 200m) and the last 80m (I guess that’s normal).

I am not sure how I would address this; I am writing my reasoning: as I am competing on Saturday, I thought on 2 days:

Monday: 4x80m (starting from blocks, 400m pace). 4x150.
Wednesday: 4x100m, 2x(200+200).

Tempo on Tuesday and warm-up on Friday.

Does the reasoning makes sense? If not, where is the mistake and what/why would you change? Thanks!

[kitkat1]

Legs crossing? Could be a weakness to semimembranosis (or adductor) unable to stablise the leg when trailing in the stride recovery cycle. See you physiotherapist.

Your proposed work for this week sounds ok to me. Only one way to find out. Try it. If you run real fast, note it down for future reference.

[TaSsl]

@kitkat1

Legs crossing? Could be a weakness to semimembranosis (or adductor) unable to stablise the leg when trailing in the stride recovery cycle. See you physiotherapist.

Your proposed work for this week sounds ok to me. Only one way to find out. Try it. If you run real fast, note it down for future reference.

Wow! Thanks, I will definitely check the adductor. I have had this problem since I can remember and nobody could tell me why, so it could be nice to stabilize the stride. Could it be that the rest of the hamstring muscles are stronger that the adductor and this affects the stride? I am asking this question because I’ve always had pretty strong hamstrings (in eccentric exercise with some inclination I can block my body few centimeters from the ground with not that much effort).

Also, another question: how do you address weights workouts during competition time?

[kitkat1]

Weights during comp. I keep them as far away from the next race or speed training session as possible. If we have a race on Saturday, we will do weights maybe Monday after the Monday track session, then Tues is usually a rest day, Wednesday is back to high intensity on track and followed then by weights same day. So during comp period we drop back to one or two weights sessions a week if there is a race at the end of the week. But we will sometimes deliberately schedule a block of training and skip some meets so we can reload in the gym if needs be. The “needs be” is based on the observations/feelings of both the athlete and the coach.

[ESTI]

Update!!

Today was huge day. My 400m boy ran a 48.93 then 25 minutes later ran a 22.6 200m. He ran against a quality runner in both events and it was the closest races of the year for him. He broke the school record (one of his goals) and now has until May 20 to prep for the regional meet, which decides who makes the state finals.

The plan is tomorrow massage and recovery jog. Thursday maybe tempo of 300s. Friday a warm-up only.

We have a high quality meet Saturday. He will run the 4x800, 400 open, and 4 x 400 and possibly a 4x200 relay. All the events will be close to hour time between. He is a 2:05 800 relay leg and our 4x800 team is top 4 in area, with the other 3 teams being there Saturday.

Sunday would be massage and recovery jog.
Monday was planning on 200+200.
Tuesday maybe 4x200 in come home pace.
Wednesday tempo again,
Thursday warm up.
Friday: Race Day

He seems to do well with recovery jogs of 15-20 minutes the day before our Tuesday meets and a few of the Saturdays. I might give Wednesday off, then Thursday 15 min jog. Friday race day.

We have been 2 weeks since doing any speed work. Our last speed session was 2 weeks ago Thursday and we did 60, 80, 120, 150, 250 with full recovery. Followed by recovery jog on Friday then Meet Saturday (ran well: 4x200 leg, 4x100 leg, 4x400 leg, all fast or him)

Last week we did Mon jog, Tues Meet, Wed 6x200 with jog recovery in come home pace, Thursday jog, Friday off, Sat meet (ran crappy). Sun off
Monday jog 20 min, Meet (today, set 2 PRs).

Any tips leading to the regional meet in abut 9 days??

Thanks again. He, and I both thank you.

[TaSsl]

@ESTI

Update!!

Today was huge day. My 400m boy ran a 48.93 then 25 minutes later ran a 22.6 200m. He ran against a quality runner in both events and it was the closest races of the year for him. He broke the school record (one of his goals) and now has until May 20 to prep for the regional meet, which decides who makes the state finals.

Congratulations! This shows a huge improvement after the first races!

Related to the next races, isn’t it too much?

[pakewi]

Is individual top performance a single event happening in a certain moment in time (towards which we strive hard to manage all information to us available) or more so a state which allows for individual best performances possibly in a row and over (at least some of the) time?

[Nikoluski]

You seem to ‘agree’ with Clyde Hart and Michael Johnson (and others, I guess), who don’t believe in tapering as such? Am I reading you correctly?

[pakewi]

I guess you are. Aristotle seems to tell the whole story in your signature:how does a habit ever need a taper?

[Nikoluski]

I have a few questions then
What does the duration of this high performance period depend upon? Do the characteristics needed for such a performance determine the time frame to get ready for (e.g., the shorter the event, the more cycles within a season)?
And how can we be sure this series of high performances (i.e., without tapering) are at least as good, if not better (that’s always the target, no?) vs. the individual top one ‘when it matters most’ (after tapering)?
In other words, a habit may not need tapering, but will it equal top performance (excellence) ‘simply’ by what is done repeatedly? I wish I could ask Aristotle…

*shall we move this to a separate thread perhaps?

[John]

@Nikoluski

You seem to ‘agree’ with Clyde Hart and Michael Johnson (and others, I guess), who don’t believe in tapering as such? Am I reading you correctly?

see I don’t get this concept of no taper. If we take it literally it means an athlete is ready to run at their best at any given time almost at the drop of a hat. Hart says he moves from quantity to quality, if that isn’t a taper then what is? Unless of course what is meant by no taper is over a much shorter period in season i.e. no special 10 day (or other) phase pre major meet ala CF. So the volume and type of Wariner does in the week leading into the WC will be the same as 2 months out? Really?