We have been experiencing some interesting outcomes recently in training. My training partner I have started to do block starts. After doing the starts we have noticed that our ability to clean 100KgX2X8 has dropped off significantly whilst our squat and bench have remained the same or progressed. We are lucky if we can bang out 85KgX3X4. It seems that the clean is more sensitive to sprint starts and will probably lag behind the squat, bench and sprints now until we stop or decrease block starts volume. We are doing a CF type SPP.
Can anyone suggest reasons as to why this is so?
I notice a similar phenomenon. I guess that it is related to the fact that both block starts and cleans are explosive movements from a stationary position and use the same resources in your body. Squat and bench are not as explosive and therefore are not as depleted?
Agree with xlr8,
There is only so much CNS ‘juice’ (high threshold MU’s) to go around when like CNS intensive stressors are competiting for the same pool of functional reserves.
Block starts and cleans are much closer in proximity with respect to where they exist along the curve, then they are to squats and benches.
This is why during an OL workout a lifter may work up to limit loads in the clean, and then proceed to max/circa max loads in back/front squat. All are very demanding, yet far enough from each other to leave enough juice in the tank to be expended on the additional, and very strenuous, efforts, albeit more metabolically demanding, farther to the left on the curve.
The hierarchy of MU recruitment/lifts is illustrated in Charlie’s Forum Review and Vancouver workshop notes. This should put things in perspective (visually)
I found improvements in MxS cleans/OL correlate with the starts from block in swimming,and are therefore counted in the total number of block starts…
Pakewi, James and Xlr8
Would it not be more efficient for us to drop cleans all together and concentrate on bench and squats and sprints with block starts?
What are the advantages and disadvantages in your opinions?
That’s what I did (and still do!) However, if you can handle the cleans, then it is a great exercise because it uses a high % of MU in a single exercise which is especially good when you are trying to limit the number of exercises during maintenance.
Couldn’t you limit the volume or intensity of one or the other?
Agreed (and done!). I still think cleans - as well as explosive MB throws - may represent an additional option to possibly consider at least in GPP and Taper phases,when respectively strength levels may not be there yet and more bang for the buck while staying away from the water may actually help reaching the desired objective.
Thoughts ,martn76,xlr8?
I think you have all made valid points. Pakewi I agree that MB throws are important, in fact CF has mentioned that they are a great substitute for weights. I think we will drop the cleans all together and concentrate on MB, bench and squat as our strength/power moves. Thanks all who contributed. Respect!!
James,
I know you dont employ snatches but i just had a question. Would a Block snatch fall closer on the curve to a block sprint start than clean because of the decrease in load. I recall either Medvedev or Roman stating that the block power snatch was the fasted lift they tested.
Yes, the snatch accomodates less load and is an inherently faster movement
I ran my best timed 30 meter ever (3.9 from gun) after doing 3 sets of cleans with 85kg for singles as a part of my workout/warmup.
Not sure if this is a good idea on meet day but it made a big difference to me on that day.
(previous best was 4.1 for 30meter from the gun)
Cheers,
Chris
Something to think about; I would reason that the farther to the to the left (where max strength is more a factor) that the sporting event exists, the farther to the left the pre contest warm up may be in order to facilitate/potentiate optimal performance.
In a sense, this is very obvious and surely exists as a specific warmup. But in terms of somewhat pairing warm up stimuli with contest conditions I feel that we may all agree that this is something to further investigate.
Some general thoughts:
Powelifting-far to the left, likewise, pre-meet specific warm up demands lifting heavy weights
Weightlifitng-to the right of powerlifting thus specific warm up consists of lifting weights, albeit lighter that those the same lifter would
use if he/she was competing in the squat/DL
Weight throws-to the right of weightlifting, yet high max strength demand for the heavier weights (shot, hammer, etc) so a general or specific warmup may justify certain types of explosive lifting
field jumps high/triple/long would most probably be positevly effected by certain pre contest weight lifts, yet special consideration must be placed on the dynamics of the jump in question and meet parameters
short sprints- again, was must really specifiy distance as a 40yd or 60m would most probably be much more positively affected by some explosive weight lifts as part of a general warm up, than a 100m due to the speed endurance requirement.
Additionally we must pay special attention to the weights/load selected for these suggested warm ups. Too far to the right/left from the contest requirement would have little/no/or negative effect on contest performance.
Also, we must consider the parameters of the contest (eg are there trials, multiple heats, etc) as the pre contest utilization and efficacy of certain loaded weight lifts/throws would most probably diminish and possibly inhibit contest performance the farther one has to dip into the strength/speed/explosive strength endurance regime. For this reason, we could postulate that a pre contest lift may justifiable be heavier if the contest requires minimal reps/heats, whereas the pre contest lift for the same sport event may have to be lighter if there are to be multiple reps/heats/trials etc…
So for potentiating short sprint performance, it is most probable that any pre contest weightlifting would be most appropriate for a 40yd dash in combine, or possible 60m depending on meet parameters. As the shorter the distance (less time demand to exert max force) and less the subsequent contest/performance reps the better.
In regards to dropping cleans or any other Olift derivative, I agree with Pakewi in stating that this all depends on where one is during the training/competition calendar in addition to their level of physical preparedness.
If the block power snatch is the fastest lift ever recorded, and assuming cleans are further to the right on force/velocity curve than box squats, how can the argument be made that box squats are as effective as cleans in developing explosive strength in the athlete? I’m putting aside the real possibility that oly lift variations are not advisable to certain athletes or athletes competing in certain sports due to concerns about shoulder health.
There are many more variables to consider in regards to developing explosive strength than the speed of lifting a barbell as a GPP means.we must first specify how the development of explosive strength is to be expressed and how we aim to decisively quantify the trained and developed quality of explosive strength.
By comparing the clean and the squat we are dealing in the abstract. If we select a quantifying parameter such as a SLJ or VJ and are able to create truly objective training conditions then one may be able to reference one lift or the other and it’s efficacy for performing well on either test, however, this will not tell us how well explosive strength was developed, but rather the correlation/transference of one lift or the other to the tests which display ‘one specific’ manifestation of explosive strength.
this is why speed strength has been labled unquantifiable as for the most part we are only able to quantify the expression of certain regimes of strength via various means.
Verkhoshanski states " the display of speed -strength is extraordinarliy diverse; it has by nature a high degree of specificity; its transference from one movement to another is very poor and it is developed relatively slowly. The method of perfectioning speed-strength is very specific and theoretically is far from being substantiated"
For these reasons, it must be recognized that casual statements such as this lift or that lift is optimal for developing explosive strength are naive. Interestingly, many S&C coaches seem to defy Verkhoshanki’s research and experience and many others) by stating that Olympic lifts are the prime means for developing explosive strength.
Bottom line, give me specific testing parameters and we can debate which lift possesses the highest degree of transference. Beyond specific isolated tests, however, the expression of acyclic sport skill (in particular) is highly complex and the means of developing explosive strength are non-specific and unquantifiable.
Hey James thanks for your response. You and I have, of course, had this discussion over the telephone. We have to assume that no lift or strength exercise performed in the weightroom is “specific” to any given sport or sporting movement. I believe what we are trying to accomplish is the development of a specific bio-motor ability; in this case speed-strength, strength-speed, explosive strength or whatever you want to label the ability to develop force rapidly. Personally, I am confused as to what the supposed differences are between speed-strength and strength speed. Notwithstanding, regardless of whether we’re trying to improve VJ or 40 yd. dash time, performing the box squat or clean would not be specific. However, these two exercises are commonly performed in an effort to improve performance in sport, whether we are trying to jump high, run fast or both. That said, it stands to reason that the clean, snatch, box squat, jump squat, etc. cannot be equally effective. As I understand it, more power is generated in the second pull of a power clean than any other exercise. I believe Chris Thibideau has done some work in this area using a Tendo unit with various loads in the squat, etc.
James,
Could we not use force plate data to compare power output between exercises. I know Dr. Siff was a big fan of using them and talks about how the Simmons uses them with great success in the training of powerlifters in supertraining. Is there really any difference between a dynamic squat and an olympic lift in the context of trying to develop explosive strength?
Bob, think of speed strength as 1 and strength speed as 2:
1 defines the ability to generate max force against relatively low resistance; the relative low resistance provides for greater speed of movement.
2 defines the ability to generate max force against relatively high resistance; the greater resistance provides for lesser speed of movement.
Different research suggests different parameters, however, it is generally (and I stress GENERALLY) agreed that loads in the 30-70%1RM range will develop speed strength and loads in the 70-90%1RM range will develop strength speed. The more one decends below 20-30% the more development in absolute speed and the higher one ascends above 90% the more development in absolute strength.
It is important to recognize that the preparedness of the athlete and the dynamics of movement play a major role in determining the speed of movement and where along the curve the most marked development occurs.
Bob, and Frit, first I must state that I have no peronal experience with Tendos or Force Plates. I am still fascinated with my stop watch.LOL
Both devices, as we know, are quantifying tools.
Again, however, even if certain lifts generate greater power output than others, this simply defines the expression of power against a barbell or whatever implement the tendo is secured to or your bodyweight is augmented by on a force plate.
So yes, various regimes of strength/speed may be quantified in isolated testing against various implements. Acyclic Sports, however, are multi-directional and the various components of strength along the curve manifest themselves in fractions of a second under conditions of rapid change of direction, balance, bilateral, unilateral, etc. It is for these reasons why speed strength , as expressed in sport, is largely unquantifiable.
Frit, given the context of explosive strength development we must never exclude orthopedics and cost:benefit. So, in my view, the difference between the DE squat and Olympic lift exists as a question; what are you preparing for?