How challenging can tempo be? Charlie? Forumites?

I know Charlie writes that tempo can be progressed by shortened recovery times, and that the session should be challenging as long as you can finish at the same time you started at with the same rest inverals.

Does this only apply to people with access to therapy? I have been doing tempo so that by the end it is very very tough and I am sucking wind hard, but not much lactic acid seems to build up and I seem to feel fine the next day. However, after a few months of doing this it seems that the cumulative effects may have been one of the main reasons that I’m in an overtrained state. All reasons are another topic, but I’m interested in hearing opinions on how challenging tempo can be?

Additionally, if intensity of tempo is lowered will extra volume make up for it as far as general fitness, even if its done in a second session of the day?

How are your other workouts structured? Tempo should not be destructive :slight_smile:

Maybe your volume in your CNS intensive work is too high?

Thanks for the reply. I understand tempo should not be destructive, but since I would feel much better the morning after a tempo session that followed a CNS session than the morning after a CNS session, and usually better than if I had done nothing in between the sessions, I assumed the tempo was doing its job. Now, however I’m thinking that the cumulative effects could have helped lead me into this state.

As I said, there are a few other factors that I think could have contributed to me being in an overtrained state now, but I think that overzealous tempo could have been one of them and I’d like to keep on that general subject and worry about what factors led to me personally overtraining elsewhere.

What were your volumes and what surfaces?

Hard to determine if tempo is the cause without that info and also other important info:

  1. training age
  2. injury status
  3. phase, volume/type of speedwork
  4. height/weight/strength levels

Cheers,
Chris

What about you high intensity progression. That the natural suspect unless your tempo has progressed to be in the intermediate speed zone- which it shouldn’t.

Thanks a lot guys. I’ve been doing tread mill tempo, reducing rest and raising incline to make it more challenging on distances that require faster than 10 MPH. The volume has been 2000-2100m for the actual running tempo, though I also do hurdle mobility and core work on tempo days. It has not gone into the intermediate zone, so I will no longer suspect the tempo as the reason for overtraining.

List the progression and volume of speed and weights etc and maybe we can design a 10 day CNS recovery schedule.

How do you know you’re overtrained? Times? Energy Levels?

Awesome! Background is: I’m a 17 year old athlete who’s in his second training year, capable of around 7.0 FAT 60m in good weather conditions, though not right now because of the overtrained state.

The winter season was very dissappointing because I barely had access to facilities and therefore did not get to do much speed work. We had few meets and only one of them was on a decent surface, where I ran badly.

I followed winter with three 5 day GPP micros, but betweent the first week was a vacation week where I did not get to exactly follow the schedule but did a lot of general prep work.

The setup for the three micros were:
Day 1 CNS emphasis-pairs of walk back 55s/60s to start to build speed endurance and regular 55s, 60s. Micro one was 440m; micro two was 380m; micro three had to be on grass because of location and was only 30m reps; 330m. During the vacation week I was only able to do one speed session and only a small amount since it was on flats in artificial turf, I did 275m total volume with 15-20m reps.

On these days I also did some drop landings from a short height or box jumps, in relatively small volumes, no more than 30 in a day.

Day 2 Heavy push/pull:
Pullups and pushups: 3 sets, either to failure on the first set and then to failure after or so that they ended in failure
“2/1”, concentric with two arms, eccentric with one arm, rows, progressing from 2 sets the first micro to 3 sets the second and third. Could not do much for pulling strength on vacation but did pushups. On micro three I added the rows into day three and did not do a push movement.

Day 3 Leg depletion or accumulation:
I did three days of body weight leg depletion work, one day in the first micro and two on vacation. In micro 2 I did 310 weighted squats, lunges, and hypers. In micro three I did 38 weighted squats, lunges, and RLDLs.

Day 4 Cardiovascular fitness day:
I did tempo up to 1000m on the tread mill. When it reached above 600m it did stray out of the realm of extensive tempo. I felt I really needed to improve my general fitness. Volume was around 2000m per day, on average probably about half intensive and half extensive.

I followed this with a five week strength phase:
I trained six days a week, alternating extensive tempo and one day speed and weights, a day of just speed, and a day of just weights, except on week 3.

One weight day was deadlifts, rows, and bench and the other squats, chins, and bench.
It went:
Wk. 1: 36 on squat day lifts but chins done in same style as GPP and 36 on deadlift day lifts
Wk. 2: 54 on squat day lifts but chins done in same style as GPP and 54 on deadlift day lifts
Wk. 3: 3*8 on squats; all the lifting I did that week, done alone on a day, also did one hard speed session and one grass hill speed session to give CNS a break and try to help convert strength gains; three tempo sessions as well
Wk. 4: Same as wk. 1
Wk. 5: Yesterday was the end of that week so this week was different for a few reasons, but see below.

Speed stayed constant at around 800m per week, divided up over the two days. It consisted of mostly maxV work from a fly-in or speed work of 60-80m and special end. of 200 or below twice.

Tread mill tempo stayed constant at 2000-2100m + 5*45s hurdle mobility + 3000 “unit” core work (units based on Clemson’s recommendations) twice weekly
and 20 minute low intensity circuit (usually about 35-40 sets) + 2000 “unit” core work once weekly.

This past week was week 5. Sunday of week 4 the speed work went awfully. We were supposed to have a meet Thursday and Friday on week 5 for what reason I can’t imagine, so I did tempo Monday, a max triple dead lift Tuesday, tempo Wednesday, Thursday got cancelled and I took the day off, had the meet Friday (100+200 and ran more than a second slower than I was hoping for in 100, 200 was also horrible), tempo Saturday, and ran 270m short speed yesterday very very slowly. I was going to do my last strength session after this but decided to call it off.

Track practice started on March 8 and I have had to do some extra volume of stuff at tempo pace or below but nothing higher (I train after practice). However, I have been doing a low volume of throwing almost every week day and I think this may have been a big part of what is draining me. I underestimated it because it was low volume and I’m not very good at it but I’ll make sure to limit it now. One other note that I should make is that I had to sometimes cut pushing from my strength phase work because of throwing in practice.
Otherwise I think the speed volume might have been a little too high on certain days and that the lifting, since it produced such great results (~+70 pounds on squats and +50 on deadlifts) might have been very draining.

As I said I cut yesterday’s session short in speed and lifting. I’m writing this on Monday at this time because I’m sick with a minor cold. Thursday we have a meet. Tomorrow I told some kid that I would race him in the 200 on our cinder track since he thinks he’s faster than me, but I could worm out of that one, though it will be annoying to do so. So schedule so far is:

Monday-Out with a minor cold
Tuedsay-200 race on cinder plus a small amount of throwing shot or disc ? (potential benefits is pretty high muscular demand at low volume and low CNS demand because of the surface and low volume) or something else plus a small amount of throwing shot or disc
Wednesday-Ext. tempo + mobility + core work. No throwing, and a very small amount of long recovery ext. tempo on cinder.
Thursday-Meet (it’s mandatory)

So I guess the question is, what to do on Tuesday and should I use the meet results on Thursday to try to see if I’ve rebounded or not for Saturday or should I make Saturday submax no matter what the results of Thursday? And from then what? I’d like to start working in cleans and plyos in low volumes at some point since I’m of the stregnth phase and into pre-comp, but when should I start incorporating them?

Sorry I couldn’t make this more concise.

Three sessions in a row the times have been absolutely horrible (i.e. +.5 for 60, + a second for 100). This is the main reason I’m assuming I’m overtrained, I’m also sick today, which I think is probably from an exhausted CNS.

I’m actually loose as normal if not looser so I do not think it’s a tightness issue. I don’t know what else it could be.

I’d like to bump this in the hope of a reply before I go to bed since I’m deliberating on tomorrow’s session.

Please cancel the 200m race on cinders!! A few throws should be ok. Repeat 1000s and leg depletion days? I think we have a few culprets here.
In future, any depletion session is once a week- and stay away from the legs for this- just stay with depletion push-ups- farthest away from meets possible. Weights should always be a little sub-max close before meets.
So, for the time being Tues warm-up and a few throws ONLY, Wed an easy warm-up ONLY. Thurs -meet. See how Thurs goes and report back.

Haha, ok, thank you so much! I’ll let you know how it goes.

Charlie,

where is the line between strength endurance and leg depletion work? when is too much strength endurance work too much (referring to runnung a’s)

thanks.

Well I only ran a tenth faster than the last meet (where I ran about 1.1s slower than I was hoping too in optimal conditions) BUT…
in the other meet I think weather and a forced short warmup screwed me up by about 2 tenths, nothing major. It was a cloudy day in the low 50s.

Yesterday’s meet I got to do even less warmup (couldn’t stretch on the ground, couldn’t get a hurdle for mobility, and they were trying to move everything around very quickly) and the weather was horrible. It was raining during my 100, the sun was nowhere in sight, and it was very cold. I think this was worth around 3-4 tenths versus optimal conditions.

Additionally, I came in second in my race. I was around a meter behind the kid in front of me. At ~80m there was a line on the track and he threw out his arms to lean for the finish and yelled out. I got confused and looked over, sort of freezing and then we both realized that was not the right line. I ended up finishing about a meter behind him. I think if we had both run through the line we would have had 2-3 tenths dropped off our times (he’s a very fast kid).

So, I think at this time I would have been around 4 tenths better than my last race if both had taken place in optimal conditions.

This to me shows that I indeed was overtrained and Charlie, your help really helped me bounce back some. However, I think I still have about 4 tenths to go before I’m back at the level I was at two weeks ago. Also, that was two weeks ago, if there’s any bounce past the 4 tenths to be taken advantage of, I’d like to allow time for that also.

I think I will do a tempo session this morning as, considering it’s Good Friday, I think it’s unlikely I’ll get a response this morning.

Tomorrow I was thinking of doing 3*150m or so with a walk around @ around 85-90% just working on form as per described to Quikazhell the other day then Sunday doing tempo. Monday and Thursday we have meets, both on cinder.

Another option is I could go back to the gym a few hours after the tempo session today and do a low volume of power cleans (2*3 @ ~75% 1RM) and then just do tempo Saturday and Sunday.

Or I could do something completely different :slight_smile: . Whatever you say.

Pete:

Good improvement, however I still don’t see why your warmup was cut short. Why couldn’t you stretch on the ground? Even if you couldn’t there must have been somewhere you could have stretched. You should also think of an alternative for the hurdle mobility in competitions, as I can tell you first hand that in most meets you’d struggle to find one. FIND a way to get it done!!!

Thanks Alex. I couldn’t stretch on the ground because it was absolutely soaked. The main reason that the warmup was cut short though was simply because we got there and the 100m was very very soon after. I could have done more low intensity exercises if there was more time.

Damn, sick again, so ignore the other post. Saturday will be off and Sunday will be tempo if I’m better.