GPP weights

Expert Discussion Strength Training
8

For starters, don’t go putting words into my mouth Chris. I never mentioned that lactic weights was a “greater” way of achieving lactate buffering. My belief is that they serve a very valuable role when track training volumes are high such as GPP where injury related to overuse and impact are relatively high. Also very useful in times of injury, if weather will not permit a lactic training session or simply to compliment such sessions. Testing that I’ve performed during lactic weights has shown that the levels generated are higher than you are likely to achieve on the track, I can only hypothesize as to why this is.

I understand exactly what you’re saying in your post, you just don’t say why. Thats why I keep asking : “Why should weights only be for strength and power development? Why can’t they be used for anything else?” To which you have offered no response.

Second, you were the one who responded to Richards (who incidentally started the topic) post WITHOUT giving any reasons for your views.

Third I am bringing this up because garbage responses such as yours are dragging this board down. If you have something to say back your point up, don’t just stand there with your finger in your ear saying stuff like “You want to lift weights to get strongers”. You’ll just end up sounding like an idiot.

A lactate session in my training group would run something like this:

Fatigue Squats (full squat, body weight on bar): Perform as many reps as you can. 2-3min rest then repeat. This will take place for a total of 3 sets. Reps will dwindle rather severely after first set. Rest interval is calculated to coincide with maximum blood lactic levels. As I have said earlier, clinically this will generate higher lactate levels (not to mention pain) than a hard lactic track session, from my own personal perspective it makes them seem like a piece of cake.

Fatigue push-ups (shoulder width apart): As many as you can get out as fast as you can. Similar set system to the squats, however using a 90 second rest interval.

Hip extensions on keiser hip machine: 4x40 reps each leg, no rest.

Hip flexions: Same as above.

Calf raises: similar format as above but try to get as many as you can out in each set.

In addition to this during winter I perform circuits, however they simply can’t compare to this type of session in terms of lactic levels.

9

Dazed, are these sessions mixed with Max strength work in the weekly cycle?
I have found a similar session to benfit a 100m runner I coached, It allowed me to get the athlete lactic without worrying about technical breakdown…

10

Max strength was worked every third week to maintain neural throughput. We found that due to the high rcruitment levels (100%), during the fatigue weights, that strength levels not only maintained but actually improved, particularly with the younger athletes, especially in the support and stabilizing muscle groups.

It is also useful to promote perseverance through pain, as towards the end of the set the athlete believes that he or she can get one more rep and demonstrates to them that they can push beyond the limits the body tells the brain that it can’t perform any more work. The ability to override this is important for a sprinter of any length.

11

The weight session you have listed sounds like a great way to promote DOMS and force an increased period of rest time necessary to recover before the next workout.

Try this circuit workout and compare it to your depletion squats/pushups routine and tell me which hits your lactate/buffering system harder while leading to less DOMS afterwards.

Triples:

3 x (burpees (15 reps) situps (40 reps) pushups (30 reps) with NO rest

ie: do a set of burpees, immediately followed by situps, immediately followed by pushups and repeat 3 times with NO rest. (9 sets total in the first superset)

90 seconds to 2 minutes rest

3 x (squat jumps (15 reps) reverse hypers (10-12 reps), chins (10-12 reps) NO rest between sets

90 seconds to 2 minutes rest

3 x (running A’s (30 seconds) V-Sits (30 reps) Floppy fish (40 reps)

Then you are finished. You complete 27 sets of INTENSE lactate/muscular work within approx 15-17 minutes depending on how hard you hit them and how quickly you can complete the work.

The benefit of this style of workout is that there is VERY little DOMS experienced afterwards, it is VERY efficient for the time spent doing them and provides a great psychological boost as well. If you feel the plyometric impact from the squat jumps, burpees etc is too high you can sub in weighted stepups, or walking lunges.

That workout will hit your lactate system hard. I have performed tons of workouts like you are describing with depletion squats, chins, pushups, dips etc and it does not compare to what I listed above. Try it and see for yourself.

BTW you didn’t provide any sort of meaningful answer in your first response to my reply. Just flamed.

You are setting a great example as a “moderator” :rolleyes:

I never once claimed to be an expert. I am just sharing my experiences which I thought was the norm on a message board like this.

If you have a problem with me you can send me a private mesage and we can discuss it off the board.

Chris

12

what days would you do this kind of lactic tolerance workout on during GPP? I was thinking of a plan looking like this:
Mon: Accel. Development (Hang cleans also after I am cleared for them.)
Tues: Tempo
Wed: Lactic Weight exercises
Thurs: Tempo
Fri: Accel. Development (Power Cleans Eventually)

Would that be an appropriate time to do weights for Lactic Tolerance?

13

Good post Chris.

This is what Should have been posted from the begining. No one cares about an opinion that has no substance. You have substantiated your opinion, good work.

And just for the record, I don’t find the fatigue weights produce any greater DOMS than normal squats or lunges and lactate test between the two different sessions (Fatigue weights and circuits, ours are similar to yours) show that our group at least generate more lactic during the fatigues.

14

In the past I’ve started my weight program with a circuit consisting of 3 x 12 to 15 stations(30 sec per exercise/lift) over a 4 week period before getting into structured rep/set lifting. Is this a good way to start a program?

15

Any thoughts guys?

16

Dazed,

I, too, viewed weights in a similar way as Chris. I could just as easily been at the recieving end of a mod’s venom!

As an alternative to lactic-work/ endurance work during inclement weather is an application of it that most interests me. Is there any other excercises that this sort of depletion work is suited to? I’d imagine pretty much most upper-body & core movements.

In particular, I would be interested in excercises that would target the posterior chain. Note: we don’t have access to a ‘Keiser Hip Machine’. The posterior excercises that I would tend to favour may not be best suited to such depletion work (RDL, DLs, Step-Ups etc.).

Appreciate the input. Good thread!

17

I too have done gym circuits before structured lifting, but not for benefit of weights, but to condition for high lactic track sessions. I grouped 9 exercises into 3 groups and did 3 x 15 reps of each exercise but as circuits. This developed my lactic threshold locally within the muscles but also systemically which primes the CNS to cope with dizziness etc. After this I would move the gym to reps of 10 with normal rest (about 3-5 minutes) not in circuits.

However, I felt I could have been using the gym time better by missing circuits of 15 and using of circuits of 10 therefore combining the sessions. This though was not safe for certain exercises eg. squats were too unstable when feeling dizzy. Therefore, I have decided to use reps of 10 with normal rest and not in circuits for the accum. phase and body weight circuits out of the gym for lactic training.

18

If I’m using a rep range of 8 - 10 reps during GPP what percentage of previous max should I be doing ?

19

I just stay 1-2 reps away from failure and don’t bother with % max.

20

Richard how long did your accum Phase lat when you did the circuit training and how long is it now. I’m also curious as to how you scheduled your circuits in regards to your running day specifics then and now?

21

Invictus, this will seem a long, long time but my accumualation phase, or rather that of my coach/group, lasted upto around 10-12 weeks. It now lasts 4 weeks. The gym circuits (reps of 15) where placed in between track days which were typically 6x300 3 minutes rest or similar at intermediate pace and tapered to 3 x 300 full pace with 20 minutes rest or similar after 6 weeks. Now I intend to still place the gym in between intermediate track days (difficult to perform weights after a 6x300 intermediate session) but when we increase the speed I will perform weights after the track session, and ext. tempo the next day. By then on my new programme, weights will be max strength and not accum. The body weight circuits I am going to do for the next 4 weeks (GPP) will be performed twice/week after ext tempo; accum. weights on other days. The intermediate work only starts in October and we don’t class it as GPP, although I know it could be really. If this is unclear let me know.

22

Richard-you mentioned developing the lactic threshold locally within the muscles but also “systemically”. Is this something which is generally accepted? I had considered this before but the advice I received was
that lactic acid adaptations only occur in the muscles. That may not be correct but I would be interested to know on what you base your view.

On a more general note, I wonder to what extent lactic acid adaptaions are required to any great extent in the muscles of the upper body. I at least experience the debilitating effect of lactic acid almost exclusively in the working muscles i.e the legs and very little in the upper body. Conversely if I were to engage in a wrestling match I would experienece no lactic acid in my legs.

In any event, given that some may wish to condition the lactic acid system away from the track can we say any more about which rep scheme is optimal? Two schemes have been presented so far i.e straight sets to fatigue/depletion and circuits.

Alternatively, should we go heavier with short rests or maybe use some form of Tabata style workout i.e 8 x 20 seconds with 10 seconds rest possibly moderated to 15 seconds on/off? or do we attempt to match reps with the energy system (say 30-60 seconds for the lactic acid sytem) or use reps to match the duration of the event?

23

Peter, lactic acid adaptions occur both in the muscles and the blood ie. capillarisation for clearance and buffering both in the muscle and in the blood. The buffering in the blood has greater capacity than that in the muscle and may presumably have greater potential for adaption. With lactic accumulation sessions on the track the dizziness etc. starts to diminish with each session. This is the systemic adaption since the H+ are travelling in the blood to get to the CNS where the dizziness occurs. It is also clear that H+ and lactate also effect the muscles less with such training.

In my upper body I feel the burn of H+ during the first couple of 500 sessions and then it hardly appears again. I don’t feel burning (or is it cramp?) in my legs during a run, only after. Whether H+ is responsible here I don’t know, but lactic is obviously present.

Off the track, sets to depletion aid muscular lactic resistance and if performed in circuits, systemic resistance also. However, if not going to depletion, systemic resistance may still adapt greatly. For systemic adaption we are after high H+ efflux from the muscles into the blood; this does not require depletion to occur. Also we can still feel very dizzy if sets are not to depletion.

Heavy sets with less rest can also aid lactic resistance in the muscle and systemically. It may not be necessary to feel great periods of burning in high reps sets to reach our potential muscle buffering capacity and it is obviously not necessary for systemic adaption. The problems are dizziness in the gym when perform heavier sets this way in circuits which could be dangerous with some lifts, and also compromising or neglecting strength training time. It is difficult to fit accumulation weights or max strength in with such weight training circuits. On a side note, some people believe circuits are not needed if accumulation weights along with other training such as tempo are performed. This also depends on the athletes pre conditioning needs and specific track training of course.

Matching the length of the sets up to the energy system time length as in sprinting is not really accurate since the range of movement and rest between reps is likely to be different from sprinting and hence fatigue of each energy system may occur after a different time period. I feel it is best just sticking to reps of 10 and under and also body weight circuits to/near depletion if pre track lactic accumulation conditioning is desirable. A weighted jacket could be worn though.

24

Richard, thank you for taking the time to explain the significance of both muscular and sytemic adaptations to improve tolerance to excess lactic acid.

I think you are saying that improved muscular lactic resistance will also
improve systemic resistance but not necessarily vice versa. Is this correct?

In practical terms, however, I am not certain from your post precisely what training is proposed for “systemic” adaptation. You refer to sets of 10 reps but the precise exercise/set/rest sequence is not clear to me to differentiate what you are proposing from the usual weight sessions involving 10 reps. Can you clarify?

25

Peter, for systemic adaption we are looking to increase blood H+ significantly. For this to happen we really need to work many muscles in a short time period to provide a large H+ efflux from the muscles into the blood eg. working just bench press will provide less H+ efflux than performing circuits or supersets of bench press and squats, or sprinting atleast 200-300m. Working many muscles together in a short time period will cause a large H+ efflux whether the sets are to depletion or not too far from depletion. If the sets are near to depletion or actual depletion this will also provide muscular adpation.

The muscles need to be working well into the lactic system. Reps of 10 and above will provide this (reps of 15 plus even moreso), and circuits will allow most of the body to be worked in a short time period, and hence systemic adaption to occur. However, I felt reps of 10 made exercise form too difficult in the gym when performing circuits. Reps of 15 would be more practical in the gym, but I now do body weight circuits out of gym with reps between 30 and 50. This way I am still able to perform my strength and accumulation weights without interference from any other gym session.

Basically reps of 10 plus = muscular adaption; reps of 10 plus in circuits = systemic adaption also. On the track generally 300m plus = muscular and systemic adaption especially if performed in intervals.

26

Thanks very much for the clarification.

27

gf_200,

Some of the exercises that I can think of for the posterior chain are:

Bodyweight only:
curtsy lunges (push non working leg back and across body)
wrestler’s walking lunges (stay low while wlking)
supine hip extensions, single or double leg (either raise feet)

With elastic band:
goodmornings
single leg ‘sprints’ (tie the band high, put foot in, and one leg run)