GPP weights

Expert Discussion Strength Training
1

With 200 and 400 training in mind I am going to use reps of upto 10 for weights this year in the acc. phase. Previously I have performed reps of 15 in circuits in GPP to condition the energy systems for endurance but also to condition the buffering systems against H+. My question is: even though reps of 15 burn alot more than reps of 10, are the buffering systems still conditioned to the same extent with reps of 10; ie. is ‘the burn’ necessary to maximally condition the buffering systems?

I realise the opinion of many will be to condition against lactic on the track, but I feel that the muscles can be primed well in the gym, since the reps can be continued further into lactic than on the track. I do realise though that total lactic production can be taken just as high on the track, hence the dizzy, sick feeling after 300s from oxygen deficit and increased H+ acting on the CNS. Therefore the question is regards to buffering at a muscular level.

2

Another one of those unanswerable questions?

The concept regarding reps to the burn sounds reasonable in theory, but I think I am thinking of sticking to 10s :rolleyes:

3

Personally I would save the buffering for your track workouts and do no more than 8-10 reps during your weight workouts. You want to lift weights to get strongers. Circuits on the other hand can be of great benefit for buffering IMO :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Chris

4

Why not save power and strength for the track?

No one is suggesting that performing lactic work in the gym with hopes of improving buffering, should replace lactic work on the track. Only that it is another means to achieve this end. Why should the only use of weights be to get stronger? Why throw any tools away?

Richard gave good reasons as to why he would perform lactic endurance weights, why don’t you share your reasons why you wouldn’t?

5

You want to have your workout be the most efficient possible and target the systems they were best designed to hit do you not?

In my mind

weights: strength, power
sprinting: speed and speed endurance, lactacte work/intervals, power
plyos: elastic strength, explosiveness, connective tissue strength
Tempo: Recovery aid and aerobic work
circuits: strength endurance, some lactate work depending on how you design the workout and aerobic

Cheers,
Chris

6

You still haven’t explained why. All you’ve done is pigeon hole, over simplied, approached it with a closed mind and set it out with sloppy thinking. Due to the large cross over effect involved in all of these elements, wouldn’t it be better to list what facet is being trained and then how various types of training effect it?
Nor have you demonstrated why these are the most efficient ways of developing these systems.

7

hahah I didn’t feel the need to explain every last nuance of my thinking to you!

I said in my post that circuits can be very helpful for lactate work and general strength endurance but performing the workouts that give the most improvement for the TIME you spend doing them makes the MOST sense. (Unless you have a lot of time to waste which I personally do not)

If you really think that performing weights in a “buffering” sort of way will give you greater benefits training explain YOUR thinking to me. You are the one thinking “outside” the norms here.

Explain your buffering weight routine to me and prove that is somehow superior to hard core interval/lactate running and circuits.

AND FINALLY if you read my response a little more carefully I specifically stated “Circuits on the other hand can be of great benefit for buffering IMO”

What part of my reponse do you not understand?

Chris

8

For starters, don’t go putting words into my mouth Chris. I never mentioned that lactic weights was a “greater” way of achieving lactate buffering. My belief is that they serve a very valuable role when track training volumes are high such as GPP where injury related to overuse and impact are relatively high. Also very useful in times of injury, if weather will not permit a lactic training session or simply to compliment such sessions. Testing that I’ve performed during lactic weights has shown that the levels generated are higher than you are likely to achieve on the track, I can only hypothesize as to why this is.

I understand exactly what you’re saying in your post, you just don’t say why. Thats why I keep asking : “Why should weights only be for strength and power development? Why can’t they be used for anything else?” To which you have offered no response.

Second, you were the one who responded to Richards (who incidentally started the topic) post WITHOUT giving any reasons for your views.

Third I am bringing this up because garbage responses such as yours are dragging this board down. If you have something to say back your point up, don’t just stand there with your finger in your ear saying stuff like “You want to lift weights to get strongers”. You’ll just end up sounding like an idiot.

A lactate session in my training group would run something like this:

Fatigue Squats (full squat, body weight on bar): Perform as many reps as you can. 2-3min rest then repeat. This will take place for a total of 3 sets. Reps will dwindle rather severely after first set. Rest interval is calculated to coincide with maximum blood lactic levels. As I have said earlier, clinically this will generate higher lactate levels (not to mention pain) than a hard lactic track session, from my own personal perspective it makes them seem like a piece of cake.

Fatigue push-ups (shoulder width apart): As many as you can get out as fast as you can. Similar set system to the squats, however using a 90 second rest interval.

Hip extensions on keiser hip machine: 4x40 reps each leg, no rest.

Hip flexions: Same as above.

Calf raises: similar format as above but try to get as many as you can out in each set.

In addition to this during winter I perform circuits, however they simply can’t compare to this type of session in terms of lactic levels.

9

Dazed, are these sessions mixed with Max strength work in the weekly cycle?
I have found a similar session to benfit a 100m runner I coached, It allowed me to get the athlete lactic without worrying about technical breakdown…

10

Max strength was worked every third week to maintain neural throughput. We found that due to the high rcruitment levels (100%), during the fatigue weights, that strength levels not only maintained but actually improved, particularly with the younger athletes, especially in the support and stabilizing muscle groups.

It is also useful to promote perseverance through pain, as towards the end of the set the athlete believes that he or she can get one more rep and demonstrates to them that they can push beyond the limits the body tells the brain that it can’t perform any more work. The ability to override this is important for a sprinter of any length.

11

The weight session you have listed sounds like a great way to promote DOMS and force an increased period of rest time necessary to recover before the next workout.

Try this circuit workout and compare it to your depletion squats/pushups routine and tell me which hits your lactate/buffering system harder while leading to less DOMS afterwards.

Triples:

3 x (burpees (15 reps) situps (40 reps) pushups (30 reps) with NO rest

ie: do a set of burpees, immediately followed by situps, immediately followed by pushups and repeat 3 times with NO rest. (9 sets total in the first superset)

90 seconds to 2 minutes rest

3 x (squat jumps (15 reps) reverse hypers (10-12 reps), chins (10-12 reps) NO rest between sets

90 seconds to 2 minutes rest

3 x (running A’s (30 seconds) V-Sits (30 reps) Floppy fish (40 reps)

Then you are finished. You complete 27 sets of INTENSE lactate/muscular work within approx 15-17 minutes depending on how hard you hit them and how quickly you can complete the work.

The benefit of this style of workout is that there is VERY little DOMS experienced afterwards, it is VERY efficient for the time spent doing them and provides a great psychological boost as well. If you feel the plyometric impact from the squat jumps, burpees etc is too high you can sub in weighted stepups, or walking lunges.

That workout will hit your lactate system hard. I have performed tons of workouts like you are describing with depletion squats, chins, pushups, dips etc and it does not compare to what I listed above. Try it and see for yourself.

BTW you didn’t provide any sort of meaningful answer in your first response to my reply. Just flamed.

You are setting a great example as a “moderator” :rolleyes:

I never once claimed to be an expert. I am just sharing my experiences which I thought was the norm on a message board like this.

If you have a problem with me you can send me a private mesage and we can discuss it off the board.

Chris

12

what days would you do this kind of lactic tolerance workout on during GPP? I was thinking of a plan looking like this:
Mon: Accel. Development (Hang cleans also after I am cleared for them.)
Tues: Tempo
Wed: Lactic Weight exercises
Thurs: Tempo
Fri: Accel. Development (Power Cleans Eventually)

Would that be an appropriate time to do weights for Lactic Tolerance?

13

Good post Chris.

This is what Should have been posted from the begining. No one cares about an opinion that has no substance. You have substantiated your opinion, good work.

And just for the record, I don’t find the fatigue weights produce any greater DOMS than normal squats or lunges and lactate test between the two different sessions (Fatigue weights and circuits, ours are similar to yours) show that our group at least generate more lactic during the fatigues.

14

In the past I’ve started my weight program with a circuit consisting of 3 x 12 to 15 stations(30 sec per exercise/lift) over a 4 week period before getting into structured rep/set lifting. Is this a good way to start a program?

15

Any thoughts guys?

16

Dazed,

I, too, viewed weights in a similar way as Chris. I could just as easily been at the recieving end of a mod’s venom!

As an alternative to lactic-work/ endurance work during inclement weather is an application of it that most interests me. Is there any other excercises that this sort of depletion work is suited to? I’d imagine pretty much most upper-body & core movements.

In particular, I would be interested in excercises that would target the posterior chain. Note: we don’t have access to a ‘Keiser Hip Machine’. The posterior excercises that I would tend to favour may not be best suited to such depletion work (RDL, DLs, Step-Ups etc.).

Appreciate the input. Good thread!

17

I too have done gym circuits before structured lifting, but not for benefit of weights, but to condition for high lactic track sessions. I grouped 9 exercises into 3 groups and did 3 x 15 reps of each exercise but as circuits. This developed my lactic threshold locally within the muscles but also systemically which primes the CNS to cope with dizziness etc. After this I would move the gym to reps of 10 with normal rest (about 3-5 minutes) not in circuits.

However, I felt I could have been using the gym time better by missing circuits of 15 and using of circuits of 10 therefore combining the sessions. This though was not safe for certain exercises eg. squats were too unstable when feeling dizzy. Therefore, I have decided to use reps of 10 with normal rest and not in circuits for the accum. phase and body weight circuits out of the gym for lactic training.

18

If I’m using a rep range of 8 - 10 reps during GPP what percentage of previous max should I be doing ?

19

I just stay 1-2 reps away from failure and don’t bother with % max.

20

Richard how long did your accum Phase lat when you did the circuit training and how long is it now. I’m also curious as to how you scheduled your circuits in regards to your running day specifics then and now?