Ive never had decent growth with pull downs.
Chin ups on the other hand!! Yeahbaby
that’s interesting. for what reasons do you think that occurred? technique really should be nearly identical, so the main difference I can see how the positioning affects recruitment of stabilizing muscles. not sure how that would make a very large hypertrophy difference, however, if the weight moved is approx. the same
4/4/2013 (pm)
weight: 149
5 min bike
thrower’s warm-up
oly lifts checks
3x5 pc@135
3x5 squat@225
1x10:
-hamstrings curl (single-leg negatives, alt)
-calf raise
1x20:
-x-band, each
-ankle dorsi-flexion
self-massage
stretching (lower)
15 min ice (right shoulder)
weight: 151
notes:
-felt very tired going into the workout today, but to my surprise, watched the weights go up and down with total ease. perhaps I went in more relaxed even if I felt I couldn’t put forth as much total effort. power clean form is really starting o look solid, I hope it holds for heavier weight
Similarly, doing pull-downs took me forever to increase strength. Doing weighted neutral grip chin-ups (palms facing each other) in conjunction with less-weighted wide grip pull-ups made me MUCH stronger. As soon as I started adding significant weight to the chins, my strength went way up. Since I train for strength/power while trying to minimize mass/size gain, from my anecdotal evidence I’m not sure if using the same exercises but only changing the reps/rests to target mass would have the same positive impact.
though according to the progressive overload idea, one would probably see more weight gain from an exercise that hits nearly the same muscles but adds strength versus one that the stimulus cannot be increased nearly as fast/consistently. I think I will definitely consider swapping out the lat-pull downs for pull-ups/weighted pull-ups in my next cycle. not looking forward to wearing a weight belt with a platye hanging, but if I see better results, then obviously I’d do it
4/5/2013 (am)
weight: 148
250 reps core
stretching (core)
Fyi,
I do personal training for a living.
Iv’e never taught anybody to do a chin up via pull downs, only via a chin up bar.
If you watch somebodies back/shoulders/arms during both pull downs n chins, youll notice a huge difference.
Theyll need either a skimpy singlet or no shirt though…
I was competing for a short time with a mate, 1st to 50 chins non stop. He ended up pulling out… I got to 26 non stop, full chins.
My lats were rubbing on my arms!
I do agree as far as I see major muscle recruitment differences in people, but it tends to be because their form on lat pull-downs is crap! I work very hard to try and lift with good technique, I think the lightness of some of my numbers prove that (90 lbs for a lat pull-down is nothing if I was trying to show off. but with only settling for the best form possible, last few reps can be quite difficult)
I did lat pull-downs today, and I did realize that it does feel like I use far fewer stabilizing muscles than in a pull-up. perhaps the machine set-up is doing this, like the leg press versus squats and machine bench versus barbell bench differences. I definitely will be switching to (weighted) pull-ups for my next cycle
and I generally work out shirtless at school. and even at my gym back home (now) I tend to lift in either a pinny or a compression tanktop. Definitely gets me some snide looks, but I think it is definitely worth being able to see muscles contractions that much clearer to notice imbalances and to make sure form is good. my ego is definitely in check because the weights I put up are nothing compared to what some kids at my school put up (especially in the thrower’s group I’m now in!), but I guess people must think I’m trying to show off or something, which is funny considering my miniscule stature, often unimpressive weight sessions and constant battle to gain weight
good to know I can get advice from a personal trainer, too!
4/6/2013 (pm)
weight: 152
thrower’s warm-up
oly lifts checks
3x5:
-bench@135
-lat pull-down@90
1x10 upperbody circuit (10 exercises)
1x20:
-shoulder complex
-straight-arm band pulls
-stability ball pullover stretch (feet anchored)
self-massage
stretching (upper)
15’ ice (r. shoulder)
weight: 154
notes:
-feeling fresh after taking the week easy! hopefully the next couple easy days add to this and I can have a big week with 8 reps for my major lifts. light lifts felt very easy and explosive
4/6/2013
weight: 152
10’ bike
depletion push-ups (45, 18, 14)
depletion pull-ups (11, 6, 5)
yoga (10 positions)
jav specific stretches
flexibility checks
15; ice (r. shoulder)
notes:
-made sure chest touched the pull-up bar on each rep
4/8/2013 (am)
500 reps core
stretching (core)
notes:
-not great sleep the last few nights. feeling a little light-headed. probably will just do lower supplementary lifts in the pm and will move pc and squat to saturday
4/8/2013 (pm)
weight: 148
thrower’s warm-up
acrobat checks
oly lifts checks
5x8 pc (135, 135, 145, 165, 185(f@5))
5x8 squat (225, 225, 250, 275(f@6), 225)
2x10:
-hammy curls (1-leg negs, alt)
-calf raise
1x20:
-x-band, each
-ankle dorsi-flexion
self-massage
stretching (lower)
15’ ice (r. shoulder)
weight: 149
notes:
-exercise actually made me feel a lot better, so i think my session could’ve been much stronger, but it was still nice to fit it in today and to feel better
-pc form really getting there. 185 looked pretty smooth even at the fifth rep. first rep flew up
-nice to not have to use any of the smaller weights to warm-up now. i can throw on 45’s and just worry about the change now, haha
-not surprised at weight loss, actually happy with how little it was. had trouble eating most of the day, and definitely didnt eat much on sunday or saturday, really, either. probably a bit dehydrated, too
-tons of pop in my vert. it is noticibly higher than in the fall, when i measured 35" at sprinter testing. if I can break 40.5", i could be looking at a school record. with the concentration on half-squatting i have now, and with my treatment making a clear difference, i see no reason that i couldn’t challenge it (which would be especially funny if i never exit mediocrity yet end up on the weight room records wall, haha. then again, Seibald, a lax player, holds the 40 yard dash record, so weird stuff definitely gets up there). it’d be cool if i could dunk while exiting college, too. i know Trindon Holliday could throw down ad he was a bit shorter than me and had a 42" vert at the combine i believe. i’d love to step into one of my fraternity’s intramural basketball games just to try and throw down, a 5’7" kid dunking would be a sight
( -exercise actually made me feel a lot better, so i think my session could’ve been much stronger, )
Interesting comment TB2010,
I have told people that almost 100 percent of the time exercise makes me feel better not worse.
Could your session have been stronger?
Well, maybe the session was good enough for that day and sometimes letting things happen the way they will is better than having intentions to do more or different and then running into a problem.
Sounds to me that things are really going quite well for you and you are in the " flow " of things going your way?
hi angela! that’s cool to here that exercise almost always makes u feel better to. I remembering hearing that exercising while sick just delays one’s recovery from illness and one cant see gains anyways because the lack of an anabolism as one fights off the bug, but I seem to get better faster if I do exercise.
And as for “flow”, things have been going fantastic so far. I think I’ve learned a lot since starting to make my own workout plans when i was 16, so its awesome when it appears that training startegies I implement, that maybe in general wouldn’t be a usual recommendation, but are right for me) work (saw the mopst weight gain in my unload week, even though it seemed pretty early to already have one) and it’s even cooler when something totally unexpected goes good (or bad I suppose, still a learning experience).
I’ll be super excited to get back on the team, especially if things continue going well. I think my coach will be psyched, as the only reason I’m on the roster is that a couple attributes I had look like potential for high power output, so when I go back, it’s the season to show him that he was right! Still a lot of time until then though, so I just have to be patient and keep my eye on my goal.
Ironically, after doing barely anything speedwork related and concentrating on javelin, I am almost certain that I am running significantly faster than I was in the Fall. I wonder whether this has to do with work capacity, a need further general development, rebound results from past overtraining, flexibility increases or (probably) some combination of those
4/9/2013 (am)
weight: 148
notes:
-seem to be catching a cold 
will take my zinc supplements and sleep a little extra. if I take care of it right when I notice it, I tend to recover quick from colds
-some minor lower doms, but right where I’d want it (upper hammy, lower glutes)
-felt pretty groggy in the morning still, but much better than yesterday. appetite still down, but I think this is directly related to my tiredness, so I know I have to get better rest if I want to be hungry
-too busy at work today to fit in the usual core. I’ll just do it at the end of my lift like I used to do
4/9/2013 (pm)
weight: 149
thrower’s warm-up
oly lifts checks
5x8:
-bench(135,135,155,165(f@7), 135)
-pull-ups(bw,bw,bw,bw,bw(f@6))
2x10 upperbody circuit (10 exercises)
1x20:
-shoulder complex
-band pulls
-pullover stretch (on stability ball)
self-massage
stretching (upper)
15’ ice (r. shoulder)
weight: 152
notes:
-feeling pretty crappy from my cold, but i usually feel like this right before its over, so that’s a good sign
-good to see weight back in the 150s
-will do core tomorrow morning, and depletion push ups before stretching in the afternoon
4/10/2013 (am)
weight: 149
500 reps core
stretching (core)
notes:
-really felt the increase in energy from exercise today. haven’t hit the 8+ hours of sleep I aim for the last couple nights, but I’ve realized if I get more around 7-7.5, I don’t feel more tired during the day and tend to have fewer nighttime awakenings, remember dreams less vivdily, etc. I’m just nervous to get less than the recommended amount of sleep as far as sickness and athletic recovery go, but i suppose sleep quality is probably more important than quantity for both cases. I’ll try to get near 9 for the next couple nights and then 8, and then i’ll try a week of looking more at 7.25 hours per night. If I feel more sore or tired, then I’ll boost back up to at least 8
-upperbody soreness not noticible, but lower doms still hanging around
Thursday 4/10/2013 (pm)
5’ elliptical
depletion push-ups (47,17,15)
self-massage
yoga (10 positions)
javelin specific stretches
flexibility checks
15’ ice (r. shoulder)
weight: 153
notes:
-upperbody soreness started seeping in as my work day came to an end. less severe after the push-ups
Wednesday 4/11/2013 (am)
morning weight: (forgot)
500 reps core
stretch (core)
notes:
-chest soreness practically gone. surprised bc it clearly seemed on its way up going into yesterdays pm workout. I was worried the depletions would inhibit recovery, but it seems it acted more as active recovery than anything
-didn’t get to exercise right when I woke up because I had a project to present at work and felt pretty crappy. assumed it was still my cold (sinuses finally draining out, probably will be back at 100% tomorrow or the next day), but once I exercised, I felt all better
-Slept 8.5 hours last night and actually woke up feeling not terrific (low appetite, groggy). can’t tell if this is a cumulative thing or if my body is wired for 6-7.5 hours, so that could be oversleeping by nearly 2 hours and that probably would result in grogginess and upset stomach. also might have to do with what sleep stage I have to wake up from, so maybe I need to push 9 hours to finish the cycle. after about 6 hours I have very interrupted, yet deep, sleep, I’m thinking 7.5 and a nap might be best, but I’ll try to get 8+ for like a week and if it doesn’t work then I’ll try to line up at a 1.5 hour increment
A caveat to my previous comments about exercise always ’ making" me feel better is that what is essential I have experienced is the correct judgement of training at any point in time regarding how you feel. I find teaching people how to judge ’ what type of work to do when ’ is difficult unless that person is vested in their training methodology. Most people want recipe training. Having said that you can’t have every athlete questioning all things all the time with coaches either but it’s a balance depending on the situation.
You see TB you are young and have lots of time and you are making a time and energy commitment into taking a very active role in your training through research and reading and questioning. This is an excellent way to learn more about yourself and what you might be capable of accomplishing.
Generally speaking I will tell you that most people over train, do not understand the various attributes of certain types of training ( high intensity, low intensity, the effect of too much volume ). As a general rule if you error on the side of less you will do better long term. Now, high performance is a different beast all together. At the highest level the game and stakes are raised to meet the possible rewards ( or perceived rewards ) of the outcome.
I am not so surprised to hear that your speed may be decent despite not focusing on it the way you felt you needed… Understand if you were a pure sprinter that pattern would not be sustainable. Retaining speed at a certain level for a period of time is one thing but the greater your goals and the higher you go in competition the more speed work will need to be developed, maintained and routinely practiced. I think you understand this anyway but I wanted to make the point regardless.