Good question Charlie. I don’t use this approach personally, but if I did I would certainly cut down on the exercises in a Max Strength phase. I would probably cut all single leg work and use only the front squats and olympic lifts. Given that I mentioned that the Olympic lifts used were hang cleans and snatches it does seem like there would be something missing during a max strength phase. Could it be more effective if heavier Olympic movements were used such as clean/snatch pulls or even the full lifts? It does seem like the lack of a heavy hip dominant lift does create more problems than it solves.
For reference, from what I have read of Mike Boyle’s approach he does not drop many, if any exercises during Max Strength phases. Only the volumes and rep ranges are lowered, with single leg posterior chain movements still being performed for sets of 5 reps. I have never spoken to Mike personally though, so cannot claim to have full knowledge of his approach.
I agree with you completely Bob. I meant to mention that the single leg lifts would not produce hypertrophy as effectively as exercises allowing a heavier load to be used.
The research on pulls from the floor sounds very interesting. While I use lifts from the hang I believe they are only a supplement to pulling from the floor.
I think most would agree that a well coached, properly performed back squat or deadlift is not inherently dangerous. Given this there seems no reason to eliminate them as doing so will only make programming much more complicated in an attempt to make up for them, and possibly less effective.
Further question. If you started with this approach and you then modified it for the max strength phase, would you go back to the full complement of lifts in the next hypertrophy phase or only some of it? When is enough enough?
Yes, I would reintroduce them in the next hypertrophy phase if I felt further hypertrophy of the posterior chain was necessary. However I think we’ve come to the conclusion that this is probably not an efficient approach, in reality I would not follow it in the first place.
If back squats and olympic lifts were being used would you drop hyper complexes or reverse leg presses during a max strength phase? If so would you always reintroduce them during hypertrophy phases or do you only feel they are useful with athletes up to a certain level?
I would reduce hypers and reverse hypers but not eliminate them entirely. They are a bit hard to get used to (re-used to?) and they are not as taxing as most of the lifts described. Thoughts?
Bob, this is getting off topic, but you mentioned Bob Alejo and Andy Bloom eliminating the catch from olympic movements. What are your own thoughts on this? Personally I am not against pulls however I would be against eliminating the catch entirely. The only study I have heard of on this topic is:
Frolov, V. I., Efimov, N.M., Vanagas, M.P., “The Training Weights in the Snatch Pull”, Tyazhelaya Atletika, Fizkultura I Sport publishers, Moscow, 1977:65 - 67
Unfortunately I don’t think getting access to it will be a simple process. However some of it’s contents are mentioned in an article on dynamic-eleiko.com. Here’s an excerpt:
“Although it would seem this movement (the snatch pull) is very specific to the snatch, “A lifter is unable to generate a comparable maximum force against the support in the explosion phase of the high pull as he can in the snatch” (12); “The speed of the barbell is also slower in the high pull, at the bordering parts of the pull phase, than in the snatch” (12). The forces applied to the barbell with weights in excess of 90% and the resulting speed of the barbell in the snatch pull are not comparable to a classic snatch.” http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/library/farticles009.html
Based upon my own anecdotal evidence I would agree with this. Even a well performed pull does not look or feel as fast as a completed lift with equivalent load. Further more I have seen very few well performed pulls done by athletes who have never learnt the full lift.
Having said all that, overall I don’t think it matters a huge amount. Both help develop power in an athlete and weight training is only general preparation for sport. I doubt whether someone catches or not will have much difference on how fast they run, how high they jump or how far they throw.
I would agree with this. They are not taxing enough to hinder the aims of the max strength phase, and if continuing to use them at lower volumes will make it easier when they are reintroduced there seems no reason to drop them entirely.
Just one question Charlie, why do you feel they are valuable in the first place? As far as I know you don’t load them heavily so what do they provide that back squats or deadlifts do not? I have my own opinion about this, but I’d be interested to hear yours.
After reading Charniga’s article, I’m not sure of the “snatch pull” technique he is referring to. It seems to me he is referring to a snatch pull culminating with the shoulders shrugged and the arms still straight or slightly bent. Both Alejo and Bloom continue the pull to at least “nipple” level. Thus the movement might be labelled a “snatch high pull”. Alejo seems to feel the research in this area is conclusive in deducing no real difference in power generation between including the catch or performing simply the high pull (pardon me, I’m trying to type with my two year old on my lap). In terms of getting the eccentric benefit or force absorption benefit of the catch, Bob prefers the push jerk to the full power clean or snatch.
Getting back to the squat discussion, I think a safety squat bar is a much better solution to the back safety issue than the front squat. The trunk is forced to stay erect and heavier loads can be moved relative to the front squat. Obviously wrist pain and/or inflexibility is not an issue and the safety squat bar does’nt tax the front delts the way front squats do. Useing handles with the SSB is a big mistake.
I agree, if you’re going to eliminate the back squat then the safety squat bar is probably a better replacement.
I don’t have any personal experience with it but from what I’ve seen I’d imagine you would still want to supplement the SSB with a movement that places more emphasis on the back and hamstrings. Would you agree with this? This begs the question, why? In what situation would you deem it necessary to replace the back squat?
I tend to alternate bars for the sake of variety;straight bar to SSB to “Buffalo” bar as an example. Sometimes shoulder pain makes the SSB more appropriate. If the trainee’s levers make back squatting with proper technique difficult the SSB might be a viable alternative.
I tend to train the posterior chain specifically even while back squatting,i.e.RDLs,good mornings and/or deadlifts. If we’re talking about training economy I probably would not find it necessary to compliment the SSB with a specific posterior chain movement. The SSB is sort of a hybrid between the front squat and back squat.
I agree, it’s definitely very useful where shoulder problems are an issue. Is there an obvious build of trainee that you would say might be better suited to the SSB i.e. those with relatively long limbs?
I know Charlie has said that he doesn’t like much exercise variation due to adaptation stiffness hindering speed work. I assume you don’t find this to be an issue. Why do you think this is? Do you still like to vary exercises during the season, or only during the off-season?
Normally reps are kept low on front squats for technical reasons. How many reps do you typically perform?
Sometimes, strengthening the important muscles becomes secondary to strengthening the complete movement. With someone with a squatting background you described (yourself), the front squat probably isn’t your best bet as your main squat but as a secondary movement you use before you hit a plateau (this comes in handy with planning/periodization).
You’re a smart man Bob, but my question would be have you discussed this with Coach Boyle (since you are a valuable contributor to his forum)? I’m assuming you have but if you really don’t understand his point of view and your methods are bringing results, then it seems to be a minor difference of opinion (regarding developing athletes).
I rotate the back squat and leave it out during the competitive season. But I have been lucky enough so far to be the person to begin a formal strength program with the athletes I train (again, mostly volleyball players). Sometimes, coaches at higher levels are left to deal with injuries and technique created by coaches at the lower level (such as Coach Boyle) that increase the risk of continued use of the exercise (the back squat or deadlift here).
Another side note here is, again, how much strength is necessary when there are so many other skills left to train? If 600 pounds on the back squat was enough for the fastest man in the world, how much is necessary for hockey/football/sport athletes who also have to train endurance, agility, etc., more extensively? Obviously, at the individual level there is a difference but surely the difference is not 300-400 pounds is good for one and 800-900 is required for another? My full squat (oly depth) is only 330 pounds at a bodyweight of 180, but my vertical jump is 35" and I run a 4.5 40-yard dash (when I did run a 40). I’m not implying that my results support my argument, but how much is necessary? A good coach will recognize when further strength gains no longer “truly” benefit performance (in accordance with risk:benefit).
I had the pleasure of spending some time w/Mike at a PerformBetter function in Chicago last year. A really fabulous guy. Mike is very interesting in that when I speak with him one-on-one our training philosophies seem very similar. If Boyle’s philosophies are critiqued by what he has written (either in books, articles or on his forum) I think people tend to get a less than accurate picture of how Mike thinks. I guess that probably is’nt a very good thing and I can’t explain the discrepancy. Again I think Mike’s real aversion to the back squat is the difficulty in supervising the lift in a team environment. If he is training someone individually he may indeed work with the back squat, I’m not sure. Once again, I love the guy and hold him in the highest regard. One thing about Mike, he is always learning and reserves the right to change his view on something if new research or antecdotal evidence justifies it. I do want to make the point that I will never know as much as Mike knows (or even 1/2 as much for that matter). I’m just a guy sharing his opinions.
I agree completely, Bob. I just had the same experience with Coach Boyle this past weekend in Dallas. I also had the opportunity to sit down to drinks with Robb Rogers (another incredibly intelligent coach, Coach Boyle, and JJ Robinson (the strength coach for the Dallas Stars) to discuss training for a bit.
Coach Boyle talked about how he would have his books out testing (poking/prodding) his hockey players with the books resting on them. Mike will tell you what he knows, what he believes, but he won’t tell you what he believes you should believe. Great post, Bob.
Currently, I do what my coach has me do (except right now, I have some it band issues so he’s having me go with what I am comfortable with). The first couple months or so we were doing squats mostly around 10 reps and never below 6 (i’d say 85-90% of the workouts were 8-10 reps for 3-4 sets). This set-rep range is generally more conducive to hypertrophy, but the hypertrophy I saw was mostly in my upper quads. I have spoken with others who have noticed the same thing.
Last year, I did squats to parallel +/- a couple inches (I wasn’t uber strict and it depended a little on the day and how I felt). I was using a lot more weight, compared to my full squat, and the hypertrophy I had was mostly in the butt, lower back, and hamstrings it seemed. I’m just not sure the full squat is that effective anymore because the weights progress muuuuch slower, almost entirely dependent on that bottom few inches. I think this may be why, if one divebombs a full squat (terrible idea btw), you get significantly more weight. Those bottom few inches really seem like big limitations on really pushing up the numbers. I just don’t know if I am really progressing max strength wise when doing just full squats. I couldn’t even imagine having the weight on my back I was using in parallel squats now.