I know the question was not directed towards me but they do have a website, startingstrength.com. It might be there.
From Mark Rippetoe himself.
Based on this analysis, what else would you use to supplement the front squat if you needed to use it? Would you be comfortable enough with the muscle involvement to use only the backsquat if you could do that?
I mean from speaking to him or from a website?
It is from an excerpt of the new book that he emailed to me. And I posted a part here with his permission.
I guess it depends on the stage of development of trainee. According to Rip at the novice level, you do not need to use the front squat and steady progression is made for several months with the basic strength exercises like the back squat. But as you know the trainees do get stuck after a while. So at the intermediate level front squats can be used as a variant. But as per that analysis he does not think that the back squat loads the spine more than the front squat. In fact he prefers to teach the back squat to novices.
I agree with alot of what Boyle stated about front squatting being harder for athletes to mess up as well as perhaps being a bit safer. I personally like them better than back squats for myself.
However… WRISTS.
This is one reason why front squats in some athletes would potentially be out of the question. I wouldn’t want my basketball players, throwers, baseball players, and any athlete who’s wrist is of any real importance to have problems with their wrists.
Now before you guys say… “use the arms crossed method or use straps”, in my opinion both of those methods absolutly suck. There is nothing more awkward. From my personal experience with it and teaching athletes to do it, It makes the front squat feel like a total different exercise and in my there seems to be lack of control.
I find the arm crossover method a lot easier. I struggle with 250lbs in my hands/fingers but can do 300 with the same amount of effort if I use the arm crossover (feels more balanced if you do it right). You just gotta get used to it.
Do you guys feel quad hypertrophy is a problem with front squats? I mean, with deep back squats (full or a couple inches from), I get pretty decent quad hypertrophy compared to say powerlifting style squats @ or slightly above parallel. This may not be a huge problem, but it doesn’t seem to address the issue or strengthening the important muscles.
Thoughts?
You make it sound as if quad hypertophy is a bad thing. Sure, having too large of quads can be an impediment, but I can’t see an imbalance like this occurring if one’s training is correctly assigned. Besides, strong quads and glutes (both of which come from a ATG front squat) will equal a strong start.
As long as you hammer your hamstrings just as hard, there shouldn’t be a problem here. In my next macrocycle I’ll be doing front squats and staggered GMs, and I don’t foresee a problem.
I haven’t noticed this with front squats BUT since you mentioned it… I feel the way you just described about single leg DB squats aka bulgarian style squat with the rear foot elevated.
i have anterior pelvic tilt and whenever i try front squats my back dips down like crazy, its very very hard to keep the bar on the shoulder blades. IM aware of the pain but i know it will go away in a few weeks, but my body mechanics dont allow me to go deep without my back dipping down. Whats a solution for this?
I have the utmost respect for Mike Boyle. A very knowledgeable coach and a really nice and generous guy. Notwithstanding, I have real difficulty universally accepting this front squat instead of back squat position. #1 the problem of inflexibility at the wrist and therefore painful front squatting is probably more prevalent than back pain in back squatters (Boyle strongly discourages employing the “cross grip”); #2 Using myself and my client’s as reference points, I can’t imagine ever front squatting 90-100% of back squat poundage. I think this is true of any fairly accomplished back squatter. I doubt very seriously if Shane Hammon can front squat say 800 lbs. (assuming Hammon can back squat 900 lbs. outfitted in oly competitive gear squatting over 1,000 lbs. as a competitive powerlifter). If your working with someone who has never thoroughly pursued improving their back squat, then the above %'s might apply; #3 Mike also dislikes the deadlift for the same reason he dislikes the back squat. I’m not sure about this, but I believe he does employ the semi-stiff legged deadlift. In addition he is not a fan of the reverse hyper unless your a powerlifter. Not sure about his use of glute ham raise. A reverse leg press is out of the question as the apparatus is a “fixed” plane device and not readily available (I believe this would probably be Mike’s view). The point here is if we don’t back squat and we don’t deadlift are’nt we limiting ourselves as to what effective means to use in developing the posterior chain? Supine leg curls using a stability ball just is’nt going to cut it in my view (too easy not enough load even when advancing to single leg version).
In addition to the above, Rippetoe’s description of the differences in the two exercises I believe cogently suggests the back squat if we’re looking at an “either or” situation (which of course we’re not). In “Starting Strength” Rippetoe is quick to point out that the back squat and the front squat are different exercises that produce different results.
Once again, Boyle is great. I simply disagree with him on this issue. But then again, who the hell am I?
Bob Tomlinson
If you need to do front squat for whatever reason, you’d need to supplement with another back dominant lift. If you do backsquat, you don’t. If you actually have the choice and you need to limit the number of lifts in a session, the choice would be obvious. That said, you have to approach things in the way you are best able.
Well put. In addition, I think one of the reasons Mike favors the front squat is that he feels the back squat requires constant attention to the athlete’s form by the strength coach (to prevent poor form and ensuing back trouble) which can be difficult in an understaffed team environment, i.e. the front squat is more appropriate and safer when one coach is working with multiple athletes
Maybe so but you need to work towards the ideal athlete program rather than the ideal coaches program
As far as I know Mike often works with teams or large groups of athletes. An exercise that is harder to get wrong certainly makes sense in this situation, where there must be less individual attention to athletes. Though obviously, as Charlie mentioned, ideally training will be tailored to the athlete rather than the coaching environment.
I believe almost all of the posterior chain work that Mike does is on a single leg. He is not averse to the semi-stiff legged deadlift, but he much prefers the single leg version of it. He is also a big fan of snatches and cleans from the hang, which will obviously recruit large numbers of MUs in the hips albeit with less force than a deadlift/back squat etc.
What do you think of this approach to developing the posterior chain? Are heavy hip dominant lifts necessary? I know Charlie won’t agree with the single leg stuff, but it will produce hypertrophy. Might this in addition to squatting, olympic lifts and sprinting be enough without heavy hip dominant movements, or would this produce sub-optimal results?
If you did use this approach, would you modify it in the Max Strength phases or maintain this large a number of exercises?
I disagree with the “single leg exercises will produce hypertrophy”. At least not optimally. How can they? You can’t train with enough load. An exception would be the so-called Bulgarian Split Squat. If load was’nt necessary, Ronnie Coleman could get by on push-ups.
Regarding oly lifts from the hang, Bob Alejo and Andy Bloom provide compelling evidence that pulling from the floor is much more efficacious in power development than pulling from the hang. These guys both advocate eliminating the catch from the oly lifts when training athletes. I believe John Garhammer and Loren Chiu among
several others have just produced some peer reviewed research to this effect (pulling from the floor).
I think we need to get back to the “back squats and deadlifts are only dangerous when poorly performed” position. Are there many coaches posting here that have had a plethora of back problems with back squatting?