Force Application

Charlie and Clemson,
I’d really like to hear from you guys on this one. This is a long post, so bear with me, I think a lot of people might be interested.

I finally ran my first race in 14 years (since high school). It was a pathetic 12 flat, but that is actually faster than I ran in high school (on average) and I had fun. So, not bad for a 32 year old. I actually beat some younger kids!

However, I think I’m not transmitting enough force into the ground. I’m not talking about subjective sensation, since I usually ignore my legs when I run and don’t really feel them.

I’m speaking in objective terms. It has more to do with the fact that my strength levels have increased significantly this past year and I’m not translating that power into the track, despite consistent speed work along side the strength training. In fact I think my sprinting has helped my lifting more than the other way around.

And no, I have not been doing excessive volumes of lifting. On average I lift only twice a week, doing 2-3 exercises for 2-3 sets each. My average workout volume is about 5 work sets total.

To give you some solid numbers, since I began this year’s training cycle in September, my squat (full depth) has increased from about 225lbs to 315, my inclince press has gone from about 195 to around 235-240. I can do bumbbell rows with 120 for 4-5 reps fairly easily and it’s my least consistent exercisee. I realize my leg strength is low in relation to upper body, but I’m working on it as best I can.

I thought that such a significant strength increase would have a greater translation to my speed. A big problem with my training is that I don’t have any timing in my workouts, for a variety of reasons, so I’ve been flying blind so to speak, without any real feedback as to how things affect speed. The only numbers I’ve been able to see are in the weight room. However, even if I was aware of the effect on speed (or lack thereof) I’m not sure how I would go about adjusting the training in response to training times.

I have always felt that my major deficiency is elastic strength, which is why I asked so many questions about plyometrics when I first joined the forum two years ago. I have just recently developed enough elastic strength to perform hurdle hops without killing myself. I tried it last year, let’s just say it wasn’t pretty.

Anyway, I’m really looking for ideas for how you would approach this situation. Increasing plyometric training seems like the obvious answer, but I’m wary of simply doing more jumps without knowing how that will affect the overall program.

interesting.

please provide some of your track work outs.

Here are two from the middle of my last max strength phase:

Thursday 4/15/04
Warm-up I: 400m walk, 800m jog, stretch, med ball circuit 100 reps, stretch, A skip 3x30m, stretch, B skip 3x30m, stretch, butt kicks 3x30m, stretch, A run 3x30m, stretch
Warm-up II: 4x30m buildups in spikes
Speed: 4x30m, 2x50m, 2x80m
Med ball: squat throw w/hop 2x5
Squat 6x275, 3x285
Incline press 3x225, 2x235

Monday 4/19/04
Warm-up I: 400m walk, 800m jog, stretch, med ball circuit 100 reps, stretch, A skip 3x30m, stretch, B skip 3x30m, stretch, butt kicks 3x30m, stretch, A run 3x30m, stretch
Warm-up II: 4x30m buildups in spikes
Speed: 2x20+20+20 (LHL), 2x60m
Plyos: ankle hops x10
Med ball: back toss x5
Squat 3x285, 2x295
Dumbbell row 2x4x120

Here’s a more recent one:

Saturday 5/15/04
Warm-up I: 400m walk, 800m jog, stretch, med ball circuit 100 reps, stretch, A skip 3x30m, stretch, B skip 3x30m, stretch, tripling 3x30m, stretch, A run 3x30m, stretch
Warm-up II: 5x60m, 2x30m buildups
Speed: 2x20+20 (LH), 2x20+20+20 (HLH), 2x80m
Plyos: hurdle hops 5x2
Med ball: back toss x5
Squat 2x285, 1x195
Incline press 2x225

Flash,

Great post and I feel that your strength levels are high enough not to worry anymore the weight room. When you trained with our boy a couple of summers ago his strength in the weightroom was great but took a long time to transfer…we dropped a lot of the volume to allow for more running and no weights and soon his speed went up.

I think a variety of plyometrics and running sets may be your solution since things need to gel together…maybe your are stronger so your errors are increasing? I don’t know…video would be nice.

Clemson,
Ironically, I think one of the reasons my strength increased so much and so consistently this year is specifically because I deemphasized it and made it a secondary priority. I think the lower volume helped me recover and adapt better.

I’m in a strength maintenance phase now, so I have been able to increase my speed volume. I’m only squatting about once a week, and I think I’m going to switch to partial squats to further reduce the fatigue, similar to what Ben did in '88. I agree that I need more plyometrics, but I’m still a little gun shy about increasing the volume due to lower leg soft tissue issues.

I’ve written about this before. I have really bad chronic spasm in my foot arches and plantar fascia as well as in the deep compartment muscles in my calves (specifically, the flexor digitorum longus). I know this is another major factor in my elastic strength deficiency, since my main shock absorbers so to speak are not working properly. I have been working on this problem and it has improved a great deal over the last several months, but the point I was starting from was so bad, I still have a long way to go. This is the reason I begin my warmups (see above) by walking a lap. I found that if I just started jogging without loosening the feet and ankles a bit they would tighten up. It’s also the reason I replaced tempo running with other forms of general training.

So, I realize the solution to my problem is partly training related and partly soft tissue related (and their interaction).

Regarding video, I’d love to provide some, but there are a couple things that make that inconvenient. One, I don’t have a video camera and can’t afford one right now since I’m getting ready to pay off my car. Second, I do most on my training in the evening, so lighting would be poor even if I borrowed a camera (this is also one of the reasons I can’t do timing in my practices until I get a speed trap system or something). It might be easier and cheaper for me to just pay you a visit when you’re in Tampa.

Clemson is spot on here. Since your strength levels are already good (at least relative to your speed) you should minimize the amount of lifting you do to save your training energy for speed and elastic work. However, since you have soft tissue issues that you are struggling with (and they will manifest more with this type of work than with weight room work.) I would recommend that you get those solved first.

Being “gun-shy” when doing sprint work or jumps is going to at best make them ineffective and at worst ingrain some bad movement patterns and cascade to other injuries.

I’m not sure what kind of therapies you have tried, but start there. Then I really like barefoot tempo to help strengthen the foot structures. Pool tempo or even barefoot walking may be needed at the start reduce the impact for until you build up. In addition, you may have to work with extremely low volumes at the start in order to not aggravate existing problems. Stop the sessions BEFORE you have any pain.

“It might be easier and cheaper for me to just pay you a visit when you’re in Tampa.”

The most cost effective way for training with me (if you want) is to simply fly me down and let me use my airbed. I will work with any athlete for free provided that they don’t impair what I am doing with my athletes training. Going to tampa will cost money for hotels (I stay with a close friend) and you must work and can’t leave. Most of my clients are football athletes in college that will pool money (each guy gets 50 bucks from their moms and dads) for me to come in and help (most of it is now injuries). I can do a manual therapy and help. Tampa’s weather is hard to predict and their is no indoor facilities. All I need is a Ticket and I can pay for my own meals and expenses. I would like to repay you for letting my guy maintain his fitness with training while visiting his girlfriend.

Sounds almost exactly like my situation! Literally! The strength levels and times are almost identical!

My stats:
30 years old.
6 feet tall 196 pounds 15% BF now
12.05 FAT last year (after training for only about 3 weeks)
340 squat RAW oly style this year
265 flat bench this year
425 deadlift

I ran 10.8-11.2 in University (Average times were 11.1-11.3 wind legal FAT)

What I have done is almost cut out weights entirely and focus on running, circuits and strength endurance.

In just three weeks I have noticed a HUGE improvement in how I feel both on the track and off!

I would look at doing longer speed workouts. short speed keep around 80 meters (maybe 50 meters at the shortest) and cut down the rest times.

Circuits (bodyweight based), hills, will all help.

We dont have the CNS pool we used to and we dont recover as fast.

Check out my journal for some of the changes I have made. They have made a HUGE difference. I am going to follow this approach until I am in awesome shape. (Repeat 200’s in ~26 seconds or faster at 90% effort with 5 minutes rest)

If you increase your distances, focus on relaxation and take a break from the weight room I bet your speed with increase significantly.

I haven’t run a meet yet (I will next week as a baseline provided the weather is good and my body feels up to it)

I have a feeling my times will be improved (especially over 200m)

Good luck, let us know what you decide to do!

My goal is 11 FAT and 23 FAT for 200m.

Cheers
Chris

Everyone is saying his(flash) strength levels are high enough, how do you guys know this? He has not provided his height and weight. Body composition could be a big part of this.

Here is a sample of my current schedule. (I have had to make changes due to starting soccer on Mondays)

This is just an example of what I am doing. Not necessarily the best choice for you.


m - soccer
t - Circuit/core
w - speed/weights
th - REST
f - Circuit/Core
sa - Hills
su - REST

m - soccer
Full soccer game 90 minutes. Mix of sprints and tempo

t - circuit/core
cycling 10 minutes
stretching 10 minutes
3 x hypers
3 x hanging leg raises
3 x (pushups, situps)
3 sets running arms (dumbells) for 24 seconds
static stretching 10 minutes

w - long speed/weights
4 x 60 strides/accels
3 x 200 with 5 minutes rest (Sub 27 seconds at 90%)
3 x stiff leg bounds for 30 meters
3 x running A’s for 30 meters
4 sets explosive stepups to box
3 sets reverse lunges (optional depending on how I am feeling)
3 sets reverse hypers
3 sets chins

th - REST or Tempo

f - Circuit/Core
cycling 10 minutes
stretching 10 minutes
3 x hypers
3 x hanging leg raises
3 x (pushups, situps)
3 sets running arms (dumbells) for 24 seconds
static stretching 10 minutes

sa - Hills/circuits
2 x 6 x 40 meter hills (short/steep/explosive)
Mini Circuit:
3 x (squat jumps, situps)
3 x (burpees, floppy fish)

su - REST

This is basically a GPP for me. I am trying to get in as good shape as possible :slight_smile:

Height: ~5’10"
Weight:~175-180lbs.
Bodyfat: probably a smidge under 10%. Pretty lean, but not ripped.

Thanks for all the feedback. Most of it confirms recent trends in my training and recovery program. I think I just have to be patient now and allow things to fall into place.

Regarding plyometrics training, my recent introduction of hurdle hops is a significant incease in intensity. I’ve only included them in two workouts thus far, so I have to give myself ample time to adapt to them before turning up the notch even more.

Regarding therapy, I’ve recently increased my massage frequency to twice a week. Like I stated above, my foot/calf problems are steadily improving, but I do need to become even more aggressive on this point. Again, I think it’s a matter of maintaining this course and allowing the benefits to gradually manifest themselves.

Hey - be careful man - I could hold you to that one …
:smiley:

How do you like Irish food (or drink) Clemson?

:slight_smile:

I’m really struggling to transfer my strength to elastic strength or power.
I’m not sure if it’s me simply mentally beating myself up because I don’t ‘feel’ fast … or that I’m really not as fast as I should be.

Take a look at your overall program and see what % of time you are spending on elastic work vs strength work. Most people who have this problem realize that they are spending a whole bunch of time under heavy weights and not near as much time doing their sprinting and jumps.

If this is the case, then drop your weights down to minimal maintenance level (get in and get out) and then over the course of a few weeks, up your elastic work. You can start with stuff like box jumps to minimize the landing impacts and then move to more intense and reactive stuff.

Yup, gradual is the key word (and this is hard for sprinters since we are not the most patient bunch :slight_smile:

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Cheers man -

I’m only realising now I was spending too much time under the bar.

I’ve dropped to 1 or 2 weight sessions a week now and am trying to get the speed and bounding going.
I might throw in a few gradual hills also to see if that can help ‘bridge the transfer’.

Do you think it is something I can improve/overturn/develop sufficently in about 4-5 weeks? (I have to - gotta a pretty big game coming up then :slight_smile: )

I am stronger than anything I’ll meet on the field this year - but my speed and elasticity is poor - (It’s going to be no good if I can’t get to it to hit it!)

Box jumps are awesome I am doing them once a week now. Really good for minimizing impact while allowing great elastic/concentric work!

cheers,
Chris

I’m glad this thread has generated interest, since it relates to the big picture problem of integrating training components so that they transfer where we want them, speed.

Out of curiosity, how many here actually time their speed work on a regular basis?

this is how I do it.
Say I am running repeat 200’s. I will set my timer to the target time (say 26 seconds) When I am about to start at the line I push the timer. If I cross the line before the beeper goes off I know I ran a TRUE sub 26 second run. This works well for me.

You dont have the innacuracy of hand time this way plus it is consistent for training purposes :slight_smile: