eccentric lifts on max?

[Firebird_WRler]

@asd123

SVS I like the idea of incorporating them, I have begun to learn more about eccentrics ( a little ) but let me ask this, I was told that when a muscle contracts the actin and myosin filament slide past one another (sliding filament theory), in order for the muscles being worked to acheive full tension or activation, one must try to make sure the actin and myosin filaments have slid fully across one another, if they go too far what occurs?

Structurally, this will not happen. The danger that you can run into whith the sliding filament is if the muscle is stretched too far and the filaments seperate causing tearing. The muscle spindles help protect from this, though, by stimulating the muscle fibers to contract.

@asd123

I am assuming the golgi tendon organ comes into play and the muscle relaxes, is this incorrect? Anyhow knowing this info about the sliding filament theory, how can one make sure they are full tensing the filiaments and activating the most possible muscle fibers on an eccentric contraction? Is there a certain time limit to tell you if you are lowering too much weight or too little? Thanks for any info, sorry if I am not making sense, just trying to understand better!!!

Muscle recruitment during an eccentric action is dependant on the velocity, load, and strength endurance. Each individual is different and can handle varied amounts of work. Time and load perameters can also vary according to the desired training effect.

[Nikoluski]

There is a somewhat modified theory of muscle contraction proposed by a Japanese scientist, Toshio Yanagida (2000), where it has been suggested that instead of binding firmly to a single actin-binding site, the myosin head tracks along the active filament, forming a series of loose couplings, quite unlike the original single tight-coupling model of Huxley. As till now it’s quite difficult to disprove Yanagida’s model, the debate is likely to remain unresolved for some time still. One of the possible advantages of Yanagida’s model though is that it is better able to explain eccentric contractions, which are difficult to imagine according to the tight-coupling model.

Any thoughts on the above?

[acudave]

Super,
Have you ever used the Kowalcyk weight releasers? You may want to if you like negatives. That jump from 275, to a negative with 405 scares me a little bit. How about jump that are:
45x10
135x5
225x3
275x1
315x1
345x1
Negs
The weight differences between warmup could be a little more consistent on the differences in weight. I’m 47, so I can’t use negs for more than 3 weeks. Probably 2. If when younger, 3 weeks and then overtraining. Negs twice a week is to much. 2cents

[asd123]

Nikoluski, I was just searching around and reading up on this study, it is confusing to me…how would this theory better explain eccentric contractions? If you could explain this in layman’s terms a bit I would really apreciate it. I understand the sliding filament theory but how is this different? Just more Mysoin filaments attatched to the actin filaments? This is really interesting stuff though!!!

[Senri]

man did i get this ball rolling…now time to look back and read what the hell everybody is talkin about.

[asd123]

Senri, you didn’t start the fire, it was always burning since the worlds been turning! Read up and help me understand what this guys study in Tokyo means? I found the study I think?? on the net but I do not fully uncerstand it’s signifigance. Help me out here! :eek:

[Nikoluski]

@Nikoluski

There is a somewhat modified theory of muscle contraction proposed by a Japanese scientist, Toshio Yanagida (2000), where it has been suggested that instead of binding firmly to a single actin-binding site, the myosin head tracks along the active filament, forming a series of loose couplings, quite unlike the original single tight-coupling model of Huxley. As till now it’s quite difficult to disprove Yanagida’s model, the debate is likely to remain unresolved for some time still. One of the possible advantages of Yanagida’s model though is that it is better able to explain eccentric contractions, which are difficult to imagine according to the tight-coupling model.

Any thoughts on the above?

asd123,
i’ve highlighted in the first post why a series of loose couplings and not single/unique ones per contraction might better explain the action; that’s the main difference i can see, although this isn’t my area…

Hope this helps a bit…

If you have this paper -as I haven’t got the original one- you may be able to further clarify its significance and relevance!

Perhaps others could also contribute to this, as more related to the topic.

[Supervenomsuperman]

@acudave

Super,
Have you ever used the Kowalcyk weight releasers? You may want to if you like negatives. That jump from 275, to a negative with 405 scares me a little bit. How about jump that are:
45x10
135x5
225x3
275x1
315x1
345x1
Negs
The weight differences between warmup could be a little more consistent on the differences in weight. I’m 47, so I can’t use negs for more than 3 weeks. Probably 2. If when younger, 3 weeks and then overtraining. Negs twice a week is to much. 2cents

http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showpost.php?p=83255&postcount=60

[acudave]

Super,
I gave you my suggestion. I’ve used all the methods you mentioned in your thread. I understand Louie’s throwing the basketball analogy (Kinetic energy) etecetera. Like I said, it’s 2 cents worth.
Are you training for a meet? If you are going to do all this training, sign up and go for it. That is the greatest motivator there is. You’ll kick but. Are there any meets in your area where the bench shirts are used by high level powerlifters?

[Supervenomsuperman]

@acudave

Super,
I gave you my suggestion. I’ve used all the methods you mentioned in your thread. I understand Louie’s throwing the basketball analogy (Kinetic energy) etecetera. Like I said, it’s 2 cents worth.
Are you training for a meet? If you are going to do all this training, sign up and go for it. That is the greatest motivator there is. You’ll kick but. Are there any meets in your area where the bench shirts are used by high level powerlifters?

There was an unofficial meet; however, I wasn’t going to change my track schedule just to peak for a bench press contest. If the two ever coincide and the location of the PL meet is near then I will enter it.

I am doing all this training bc I have stagnated in the Bench press and would like some protocols on applying negatives.

P.S. Thanks for the suggestion, my last post was merely suggesting that, “One would like to exhaust simpler stimuluses first and more advanced ones second”. It is for this reason that I have decided to isolate negatives and decide whether they will make me stronger at an elite level.

[asd123]

In general does heavy eccentirc work teach the muscles to produce more force? Meaning to contraction harder and recruit more MU’s? I read that muscles produce the most force in eccentric actions, if that is the case I am thinking that just implementing them would teach you to recruit more MU’s which should have a positive carryover effect in the concentric phase, is this correct?

[acudave]

Super,
Try doing a dumbell cycle (flat or incline), hanging bands, change the rep scheme, pauses, timed sets, include smith machine (Thibaudeau throws as I call them), clusters, floor presses, close grip, etc. I was stuck in a rut going to heavy to long, and mixed it up. I wasn’t using enough deload time also. For me it was the dumbbell work and the timed sets. For someone else, it may be different. Mix it up.

[Nikoluski]

A carry-over effect should be expected, but it might not always be the case.

Secondly, the ability of a muscle to produce greater eccentric than concentric force may be a result of the tension-generating capacity of the connective tissue, rather than the contractile elements of the muscle itself and only at higher than maximum loads (i.e., not during “normal” sets).

Adaptation processes minimise the occurrence of DOMS, for example, in the musculoskeletal system of well trained athletes and microtrauma of the connective tissue plays a significant role in this adaptation process. (MCS)

[acudave]

@asd123

In general does heavy eccentirc work teach the muscles to produce more force? Meaning to contraction harder and recruit more MU’s? I read that muscles produce the most force in eccentric actions, if that is the case I am thinking that just implementing them would teach you to recruit more MU’s which should have a positive carryover effect in the concentric phase, is this correct?

asd123,
Never discount the mental confidence it can add. We are all physically capable of more, but it takes time for the mind to catch up. You can also focus more on the 45 degree arm angle, spot on the chest, and other technique q’s you need to subconsciously reinforce.

[Supervenomsuperman]

@asd123

In general does heavy eccentirc work teach the muscles to produce more force? Meaning to contraction harder and recruit more MU’s? I read that muscles produce the most force in eccentric actions, if that is the case I am thinking that just implementing them would teach you to recruit more MU’s which should have a positive carryover effect in the concentric phase, is this correct?

Think about this way, everything has an equal and opposite reaction and when you do negatives (F=Ma) there is more force acting on the body due to gravity of the excess negative wt(i.e. %105-140 negatives remember); therefore, logiciallly the body is taught to produce more force for the eccentric contraction.

Whenever was does an exercise he or she uses the chest muscles (for example) in an antagonist/isometric/agonist contraction. These contraction occur at different times throughout the lift and your brain has learned that benching 385lbs my 1RM (for example) brings about certain reactions from your body. For example, lowering the 385lbs on the eccentric portion of the lift will elicit the muscles to recruit a certain number of MU for the isometric and concurrent concentric contractions. When you use negatives like 405lbs (%105) you recruit more MU on the eccentric portion of the lift and if follows that you would incoporate more MU on the concurret isometric and concentric contractions; therefore, you lift more wt when you go back to your normal lifting scheme without negatives.

Secondly, when lifting more wt; such as, in negatives you also teach your body how to better control the wt on the eccentric portion of the lift and this leads to less energy wasted when you go back to your normal lifting regimen. You can also apply the energy you saved from being able to control the wt into your isometric and concentric contractions in the bench press.

Lastly, you get over any mind-barriers with negatives.

[Supervenomsuperman]

@acudave

Super,
Try doing a dumbell cycle (flat or incline), hanging bands, change the rep scheme, pauses, timed sets, include smith machine (Thibaudeau throws as I call them), clusters, floor presses, close grip, etc. I was stuck in a rut going to heavy to long, and mixed it up. I wasn’t using enough deload time also. For me it was the dumbbell work and the timed sets. For someone else, it may be different. Mix it up.

I plan on doing dumbell bench presses after trying out negatives for 2 months. I will save the Smith Machine Plyo Press or throws for next year.

[Supervenomsuperman]

From, http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=963EC93A565FB5AAF9EE2203A1E03CF6.hydra?id=460325

Method 1: Super Negative Repetitions

Studies show that the more control you use when lowering a weight, the more weight you’ll be able to lift. One of the reasons for this is that the lowering phase loads the muscles that’ll be used to execute the positive or concentric portion of an exercise.

Don’t believe me? Try this test: Set up a power rack and lower the pins to just above your chest. Take your normal bench press one rep max and try pressing it from the bottom position. If you haven’t trained bottom position bench presses, then I really doubt the bar will move at all!

When you bench press and take advantage of the lowering phase, your concentric muscles get warmed up and loaded. Thus, one way to improve your concentric strength is to improve your eccentric or negative strength.

I discussed negative training with strength coach Charles Poliquin recently and he revealed a great tempo speed that really emphasizes negatives. To illustrate, let’s use the example of a barbell squat. Lower yourself to the bottom position in fifteen seconds. Once you get to the very bottom, explode upward as fast as possible.

Charles explained that one of the reasons this method works so well is that you’ll have a natural urge to complete the concentric phase as fast as possible after taking so long to lower the weight. In addition, your concentric muscles will be fully loaded and ready to fire. Charles is having great success with this method and I recommend you give it a shot.

This technique can be applied to a number of exercises, but I suggest you stick with compound movements such as military presses, squat, chin-up, bench presse, and barbell row. Also, since there’s such an emphasis on the negative portion, keep the rep range between one and three.

Here’s one way to gradually break into this type of training:

Phase 1: Do six sets of one rep with five-second negatives and one-minute breaks between sets. Use a weight you can lift three times with solid form. Once you can complete all of the sets with the same weight, increase the negative portion to ten seconds.

Phase 2: Do six sets of one rep with ten-second negatives and one-minute breaks between each set. Again, use a weight you can lift for three reps with solid form. Once you can complete all six sets with the same weight, increase the negative to fifteen seconds.

Phase 3: Do six sets of one rep with fifteen-second negatives and one-minute breaks. Again use a weight you can handle for three reps with solid form. Once you can complete all six sets, add two more sets for a total of eight. Once you can do that, add another two sets for a total of ten sets per exercise.

Phase 4: Do ten sets of one rep with fifteen-second negatives and one-minute breaks. Once you can complete all ten sets, decrease the rest periods to forty-five seconds. Once you can complete all ten sets with forty-five second breaks, decrease the breaks to thirty seconds. Finally, once you can complete all ten sets with thirty-second breaks, increase the weight by ten pounds and start with one-minute breaks again.

[Supervenomsuperman]

From, http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=963EC93A565FB5AAF9EE2203A1E03CF6.hydra?id=460387

Forced negatives

The safety squad is really going to squeal about this one. Most weight trainers these days know the importance of eccentric or negative training. Arnie instinctively knew this, too, but he took it one step further. The next time you bench, curl, or perform military presses, have your partner apply extra resistance by pressing down on the bar on the negative portion. When benching, just pretend that you’re the wicked witch and that little tramp Dorothy has just parked her farmhouse on your sorry ass. Fight the weight all the way down. As you fatigue, the original weight itself will provide enough resistance so that, in a sense, you’re doing a descending set. Since negatives are largely responsible for soreness, forced negatives on the bench press will leave your chest feeling worse than Pamela Anderson Lee after the recent “desecration.”

[acudave]

Super,
Nice article! I forgot that one. Easy on Pam!!

[Supervenomsuperman]

@Supervenomsuperman

From, http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=963EC93A565FB5AAF9EE2203A1E03CF6.hydra?id=460325

Method 1: Super Negative Repetitions

Phase 1: Do six sets of one rep with five-second negatives and one-minute breaks between sets. Use a weight you can lift three times with solid form. Once you can complete all of the sets with the same weight, increase the negative portion to ten seconds.

I think that is type of method is more appropriate for bodybuilders bc of one-minute RI. Also six sets seems a bit extreme when you first start doing negatives. I usually give myself 3-5 min RI when doing bench and I only do 3 neagative sets.