Thank you Super for your reasoned input on this one.
holly crap did this post transform into a nice info article bundle of debates
Its the only way to get the most out of people. To be honest which ever way whether it is taken good or bad as insults or not. The best threads I have read always have some controversy. The key is not to take it too personal and to put your hand up and say sorry if need be.
I was not inferring that a junior high athlete should be doing heavy eccentrics. My point is that eccentrics are perfectly safe when done properly and the body is mature and trained enough to handle the load.
Supervenom,
I appreciate the detailed response; good info! I am very familiar with CFTS. From my readings and viewings of all of Charlie’s material over several years, it seems to me that eccentric training was never a part of his system, at least when he was training Ben. However I am not speaking for him.
I understand you are making modifications to suite your needs. So it seems eccentrics are a good adjunct, but not necessary component. You feel the risk is worth the reward, I don’t, regardless of the athlete’s strength. It seems that an M/S phase will provide training benefits at less risk. Again this replies to non-powerlifting athletes.
I can say that when I was at Penn State years ago I had the opportunity to take a sports training development class with Dr. Zatsiorsky and during our review of the yearly training of a strength/power athlete he never discussed the importance of them. Also at the US Olympic weightlifting center I was able to obtain the yearly training of the OL lifters and nowhere were eccentric only training utilized for the athletes getting ready for Sydney. I know that in the Iron mind tapes of Olympic lifters I have seen never once has eccentric training been utilized on footage.
My point is they might be a good training tool with a high risk, but not needed for high level performance. However I see a lot of validity in how they are being employed by people posting. I just don’t see the benefit in increasing dramatically the chance of a torn quadricep or patella tendon from doing an eccentric squat. The stronger the athlete, the greater the eccentric load used, the greater the risk.
They certianly are not perfectly safe. Thier is a difference between being scared (as in cowardly) of a training method and concern that it raises the potential for injury to a point thats hard to justify. Half my income is from injury management from coaches absuing plyos, M/S training, eccentrics, etc.
As for the statement regarding stagnation, if all other methods have been accounted for stagnation should go away. It certainly goes further than just adding eccentrics to training.
Concerning controversy, I am of the school of thought that people can disagree professionally and discuss the issues but when all is said and done go to the pub for a beer afterwards. It a great learning experience when the issues are discussed among professionals. Honest differences encourage learning. My guess is if I could take you and martin76 out for a beer and discuss training it would be a great, challenging evening!
As Louie Simmons once said, “If your dog can teach me something I will listen”. I am always looking for new things from anyone, and I appreciate what has come out so far from this thread.
Super,
What are your thoughts on manipulation of the strength deficit as it relates to eccentrics, bands, wt releasers, etc… ? Is it wise to perform eccentrics so close to competition?
You should know what type of recovery you need from eccentrics/wt. releasers/etc in order to know where it fits in your program. Eccentrics may take upto 4 days to recover from; therefore, that is why I suggested a regeneration week afterwards so that any overtraining would be taken care off. We all know that eccentrics will increase your 1RM in any lift so why would a person like me who has stagnated not use eccentrics?
BTW, I have not used eccentrics yet bc I am using increasing volume loading to get over the platueu. But there comes a point where you must decrease the volume to save CNS energy for the sprints and this is where Eccentrics come in! Doing 3 sets of Eccentrics will have a lower comparable volume then doing 7 sets of regular lifting!
In regards to olympic lifting, the strength issue can be related to the different methods used to obtain results. Look at the Bulgarians training in Zatsiosrky’s “Science and Practice of Strength Training”! Are there using eccentrics? Probably not! Are there increasing there strength volume? HELL YEAH, more than anybody else! This is why BEN JOHNSON became the world’s fastest man bc he had an annual training volume of over 60,000M (yes there are other factors as well). So you can compare the Bulagarians to BJ and see that in both cases neither individuals used eccentrics and the excess volume lead to results; however, whatif BJ had used eccentrics? Could he have been faster? I think so but the fact that BJ was not platueing in his strength training would advocate not using eccentrics till a later point.
P.S. I don’t know why CF never had BJ do eccentrics but the only reason I can postulate is that CF may not have known or thought at his present time that eccentrics would yield higher strength gains. I would ask CF about this instead of trying to guess why BJ did or did not use eccentrics and what the reasons were.
I would not use bands as there are prescribed by the WSBC but if you do use them I would think that using them earlier in the SPP and GPP would be more efficient seeing as your vertical and other power movements apparently decrease after using Bands.
But then again WSBC as well as others use other methods so that the negative impact of bands (on stuff like the vertical jump) is limited if present at all. For example, if you are on the CFTS template then you will also be doing plyo’s, explosive medicine ball, and speed so that any negative impact with usage of bands may not be present.
I would play it safe and use bands earlier periods in the SPP and SPP II and not at all in the SPP III period.
All I have to say about bands is that if it makes you stronger without using them in subsequent sessions then the should be accepted as a viable means of increasing strength. The question then becomes where should they be used in the annual training program? I cannot say that bands work or do not work for strength, but I can say that there are other methods that can also increase strength so perhaps the athlete should look there first.
This again relates to my point why BJ never used eccentrics, there was no need since he was making strength gains every year!
P.S. I don’t know why CF never had BJ do eccentrics but the only reason I can postulate is that CF may not have known or thought at his present time that eccentrics would yield higher strength gains. I would ask CF about this instead of trying to guess why BJ did or did not use eccentrics and what the reasons were.
Your claims are so outlandish. Eccentrics are a surefire way to increase 1RM and using bands will decrease your VJ? Tell that to Westside (re: eccentrics) Joe Defranco (re: bands and VJ)!
You really shouldn’t make such claims without evidence.
You seem to be missing my point. I have decided that other people may have different views on bands then I do and use them in different ways then I would. So please reread the post that you replied to. You will see that I am trying to make a comprise for some people who will use bands instead of saying “that you should not use bands at all”!
I understand that but, you said the bands are a negative and that they can be compensated for with other means like plyos etc. Can we compromise and say- like I tried to say before that weights are only GPP and relatively minor effects (such as the use or non-use of bands) won’t have as great of impact on specific performance as either of us make it seem.
Yes, that is my current thoughts on the subject as well; however, that is also why if I did use bands I would use them earlier in the SPP I and SPP II just to be on the safe side.
SVS I’m glad we can see eye to eye.
As far as eccentrics, I wouldn’t see the need to use them unless eccentric strength is a weakness of the athlete. It’s common sense, but I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned that.
As far as determining if the athlete does have a weakness in eccentric strength what would be the best way to test for it (i.e. observation during running, jumping or a test like lowering a youe concentric max for a given time)
Elars,
You should try to get your hands on a copy of the Gunther Tidow article titled “Aspects Of Strength Training In Athletics” which appeared in NSA years back. It can provide some insight to the question you posed.
During a period of using bands my 60m sprint time was 0.80 seconds slower that it had been 6 months previous. Now, 0.80 seconds is a huge amount in a 60m sprint but my general strength was also down by about 20 % but not becuase of the bands though, so I’m wondering which of the two had the biggest impact.(There were a few other factors aswell.) However, I am a little more receptive to the idea now, that bands could have a negative impact on fast power movements but I could do with a little more info. Could you elaborate a little further on the bands having a negative impact? I would much appreciate it as I currently use stretch bands in my training with various exercises.
Why do people use bands in the first place?
Answer: To get a new stimulus to adapt to. So why not use bands for just 8 weeks earlier in the annual plan and then revert back to other methods!
You did not answer my question. You have not provided any theory as to why bands apparently decrease vertical jump etc…
Just becuase it’s a differant training stimulas, big deal, every type of training is a differant training stimulas and falls in to the periodization tangent. You stated that bands decrease vertical jump. You are therefore implying that some other methods don’t. Therefore, bands “apparently” mess up natural athletic qualities (why, if true?), according to your implications. Can you back up your point, and answer with a more directly relevant answer?
Protocols for Negatives or Eccentric Loading
I have just incoporated negatives into my training scheme for the bench press. Here is the breakdown,
20x45 Warmup
10x135 Warmup
4x245 Warmup
3x275 Warmup
1x365
-1x385 Negatives
-1x405 Negatives
-1x405 Negatives
BTW, -1 means that I’m just doing a negative with that wt. For example, -1x405 is myself lowering the a weight of 405lbs onto my chest in a power rack with safety pins just incase something goes wrong.
My current 1RM max is 385lbs; however, I can’t seem to do it in my current workouts. 405 is
%105 of my 1RM max of 385.
Does this seem like the right protocol to you guys?
I think a better one might look like this,
10x135 Warmup
4x245 Warmup
3x275 Warmup
-1x405 Negatives
1x365
-1x405 Negatives
-1x385 Negatives
BTW, I plan to do negatives twice a week bc for some bizarre reason I haven’t experienced the DOMS that most people are supposed to experience when doing negatives.
What are your guys suggestions?
If you have been training for a while, you probably won’t experience DOMS. This just means that your body is capable of withstanding the increased load that you are putting on it. The training effect is still there. People experience DOMS after introducing a new or supramaximal stimulus into their training. Training to elicit DOMS is kind of like training to feel a “pump”. That pump is great for bodybuilders, but is not indicative of anything benificial to an athlete. DOMS is a symptom of overtraining in a highly trained athlete.
SVS I like the idea of incorporating them, I have begun to learn more about eccentrics ( a little 
) but let me ask this, I was told that when a muscle contracts the actin and myosin filament slide past one another (sliding filament theory), in order for the muscles being worked to acheive full tension or activation, one must try to make sure the actin and myosin filaments have slid fully across one another, if they go too far what occurs? I am assuming the golgi tendon organ comes into play and the muscle relaxes, is this incorrect? Anyhow knowing this info about the sliding filament theory, how can one make sure they are full tensing the filiaments and activating the most possible muscle fibers on an eccentric contraction? Is there a certain time limit to tell you if you are lowering too much weight or too little? Thanks for any info, sorry if I am not making sense, just trying to understand better!!! 