Heavy eccentrics are not producing greater power/power athletes because its not used extensivley, to be honest its new and has not been utilised to its max. Heavy eccentrics have been used by many other sports and produced good results. Most types of resistance training does not improve intramuscular relaxation, for sprinter, this is taken care of by sprinting. Most types of resistance training affect relaxation negatively.
Heavy eccentrics are producing greater power athletes but its not used extensivley, to be honest its relatively new and has not been utilised to its max. Heavy eccentrics have been used by many other sports and produced good results. Most types of resistance training does not improve intramuscular relaxation, for sprinter, this is taken care of by sprinting. Most types of resistance training affect relaxation negatively.
If you have muscle soreness blood work will aid in recovery.
David W.,
Should training experience be an important aspect to be considered. Senri may be young and inexperienced, and thus may need more patience. Minimum training experience of 5 years before utilizing this type of training? He may also want to have recovery methods outlined ahead of time because of the nasty nature this can play on the body. Hey, Rome wasn’t built in a day. Any time frame on the heavy eccentrics. Normal decent speed, or slightly slower? Great topic of discussion!!!
Sorry, I’m multi tasking. A discussion on weight releasers should also be included in this discussion. You can load the bar to the prescribed percent, and release a specific amount at the transition point. When doing the concentric portion of the lift the explosion is improved. I don’t use them around adolescent kids. Too dangerous. Louis has talked about this somewhere.
Heavy Eccentrics: Reward worth the risk?
Unless you are a powerlifter or lift weights as your sole athletic pursuit I am not sure I would get involved with them.
Regardless of spotting or prior expierence, exposure to injury using this method is considerable, even if used sparingly. Can we use other training methods to develop similar adaptations without the same inherent risk supra-maximal eccentrics have?
acudave, I was just wondering the same thing…I have a question for you on using WR’s if you are trying to tax the eccentric part of the lift would it be good to really stack up the WR’s with weights like 90lbs each side and then use a real light load on the bar?With the weight releaser’s on the bar you would have like 105-110% 1RM but when they deload maybe you have like 50% max left that you can skyrocket to the roof baby!!! I have read some where that this may be dangerous due to some kind of muscle overload??? 
Just wondering what you think or if you have tried this? Thanks man Peace
Using eccentrics, as well as adding weight releasers, is highly dependant on the athlete’s abilities. As supervenom has mentioned, eccentrics should not be the focus of an entire microcycle, but rather used sparingly throughout a mesocycle. Also, it is inadvisable to use heavy eccentrics without buildup work. This will lead to delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) that Goose experienced, or even injury. It doesn’t make sense to have a 100 lb. junior high football player try to bench press 250 lbs. because more is better. Make sure that the body is able to handle the load before attempting HEAVY eccentrics.
Same thing for the weight releasers. Decrease the amount of the contrast. Work your way up to a 120% eccentric drop to a 50% concentric.
I will have to reread that section in supertraining.
So, in essence, would the EMD be the stretch component of the stretch reflex? Would the EMD impulse even include CNS transmision or is it secluded to reflexive nerve stimulation?
Please bear with my many questions, I’m just trying to comprehend the theories.
European athletes are using this method, its very myopic to dismiss out of hand. It is an extension of Max strength training. All you are doing is lowering the bar onto limiters you do not even have to lift greater than 110% to gain improvements.
Its not that dangerous we have used it in the past and gained 10 kg on 3RM in 4 weeks. My squat max is 210-215 kg with a body weight of 70 kg.
What is this inherent risk you are talking about? I do not understand. The danger comes from not having the balls to lower the weight then you put yourself in a dangerous position. If you have any mental doubt then do not do it. If you use the correct equipment (heavy duty squat cage with limiters) then the danger is minimal. It becomes as dangerous as lifting your 3RM outside of a squat cage.
If you have $10,000 to spare you could buy a powerplate instead then you could gat the same results. I am sure that will be worth it.
Why are we talking about EMDS and the like. The negative adaptations that cause EMD detriment needs a very LARGE volume of slow eccentrics. You would only do 1-3 lowerings a week for a max of 7 weeks during the max strength phase in the CFTS. You would be doing your normal training along with this stimulus. Its pretty academic this point. Look at the practical results not what a study is saying. It reminds me of what Minnea and his coaches faced in the 1970s when they decided to do high volumes of speed akin to the levels CF has talked about (circa 60,000m in a year). When they presented their numbers to a conference on training athletes. A scientist stood up and said “Surely this athlete died!”.
Of course this athlete went on to run 19.79 secs.
A 100lb junior high school athlete has no business doing heavy eccentrics we are talking about athletes who are mature and have done extensive strength training.
How much sprinting or jumping was there within the same microcycle when the heavy eccentrics were done? What was the recovery time between the eccentrics and other high intensity work?
The dangers in the heavy eccentrics themselves are not that great, the danger comes from sprinting or jumping before a reasonable timeframe from heavy eccentrics have elapsed.
The eccentrics are done on the same day as all high intensity elements. We did them with conventional max strength. We followed the CF plan but the max strength volume was adjusted to accommadate the ecc lifts. There was no detrimental effects no DOMS because of good training background. No negative effects experienced in subsequent sprint sessions. Strength DID increase and aided in faster 30 times. Eccentrics are MENTALLY draining not physically. So we did them in 1 session maybe 2. Usually on the last high intensity day of a training week.
A typical training session with eccentrics would look like,
Warm-up
Sprints
Med ball
Plyo
Conventional weights (max st)
Eccentrics
EMS
I may add that the ecc were done in the last 3 weeks of the CFTS max strength phase.
I agree with the ’mental’ side, although, I have more experience from conventional 1x100% lifts. It’s kind of funny how just failing a weight you have planned to lift, will help you the next time you go for it (or higher). There’s something in the feeling, when you fail a close lift, which annoys the hell out of you, but eventually will make you better prepared the next time. It helps you to catch the moment when presented, and not just in lifting.
martn76,
Let’s keep this on a professional level. I consider myself a professional and assume that you do also. So lets get past the personal attacks and sarcasm and discuss it maturely.
The part of your post indicating you use a 3rm weight as opposed to greater than 1rm makes sense to me.
I still am not clear on the issue of whether the reward is worth the risk. The inherent risk seems to me to be from placing a load on the body which it is incapable of handling on its own where the need for spotters is essential to avoid traumatic injury.
From my own experience even healthy athletes have soft-tissue/joint issues going on, I spend a considerable amount of time performing ART in the low back and knee area, which seem to be problematic regardless of the sport. I just get uneasy with the thought of putting an eccentric overload on these potential weak links to the point where breakdown to the joint or muscle could occur.
I am not opposed to them outright, I just have a hard time considering them worth the risk. When you have the time could you outline an example of a way you would utilize eccentrics for the lower body with an athlete in the off-season. I have used them sparingly with lineman for the upper body, but feel uneasy about utilizing them for the lower body. I would imagine you don’t use them at all during the season?
The goal in the end for all of us is to develop better athletes, so I appreciate whatever experience you could share in regards to eccentric training.
Chris,
I think it all comes down to whether you think a greater degree of absolute strength will improve your athlete? If thier reactive ability is top notch and they have no other major weaknesses then it seems an obvious place to start because all other strength qualities depend on absolute strength.
Ultimately this is what a good coach does. They find the things that will provide the athlete with the most benefit for the least risk at any point in their training.
My expereience:
When using excentrics above 1RM I am always nervous about the very start of the movement.
It is the intial unracking of the weight that in my experience seems to be the most dangerous time. This is because the athlete often does not percieve much risk because it is usually the least taxing element of any lift. However, with loads above 1RM it can be a shock to the system and I have seen a few people stumble when taking steps backwards.
Instruct your athlete to build up tension slowly when pressing against the bar when unracking and ensure they are stable and fully activating thier trunk stabalisers before stepping backwards. If you have a Monolift set above pins then this avoids the need to move at all. If you feel prudent, also set the pins at a height an inche above the point you start to noice any flexion in the lumbar spine under 1RM conditions.
If this point is not as low as the desired squat depth then consider dropping the load until a neutral spine can be maintained. Alternatively you could use bands or chains to accomodate for loss of leverage at the bottom of the lift.
Usually, I do a few sessions of negative repetition with 90% before moving to >1RM eccentrics just to practice the movement and ensure the athlete is prepared for the challenge.
TC,
Thanks for the input, thats more along the lines of what I was looking for. A good explanation of how to incorporate them from personal trial and error. I am still wary as I have worked with too many injuried athletes doing things like this, but If they are managed correctly from the start with good coaching as yourself it seems a viable option.
Thanks again. Shoot me an email if you are ever in the Philly area and you can check out my place, would be interested to see how you use them in practice.
I think this is a good start to doing the exercise. I may add that the athlete must be able to control the lowering for 3-4 secs, any greater and its not the correct weight. Any shorter then its probably too heavy and increases the risk. All athletes MUST use a strength belt. Any athlete who chooses to use knee wraps is welcome. Foot wear must be sturdy and robust. Intra-abdominal pressure MUST be maintained when lowering. I apologise for my coarse posting earlier.
I don’t believe he made any personal attacks on any individual, just on people who are so scared to do the weight that they have no business doing in the first place. Greater risk=greater reward. For example, I use to do weighted pullups and chinups because they provide a greater ROM than Bent-over rows and barbell curls; however, I no longer do these exercises bc I occured injury on them. The point is, is that some risks are worth taking and others are not (i.e. swiss ball cleans! LOL). Eccentrics should not cause one to get injured any more so than doing 1RM heavy lifting, as long as the appropriate progressions are made. For example, if your lifting program consists of doing 7RM for all your sets then you don’t jump up to 1RM for all your sets on your next training session do you? :rolleyes: You progressively work up, the same thing can be said when testing your 1RM you don’t just warmup with the bar and then all of sudden throw on 405lbs for a 1RM bench!
You don’t need any spotters if you can get the eccentric load off of the pins in a squat cage/power rack. If you can get your 1RM off of the pins and can lower it with control then you should be able to do the same for 105% of your 1RM. If not then a spotter is needed to help you lift the weight off of the pins but in no circumstance should the spotter help you lower the weight (if you can do it under control) bc this takes away from the objective of the exercise. Spotters should only grab onto the bar if the weight goes down to fast for the lifter to control in which case the load should be lighter.
Remember the squat/power rack has two safey pins/rods to prevent any further vertical movement. Before doing any eccentric or strength training inside a power rack the user should always at the beginning of the warmup set adjust these safety pins/rods so that they stay at this level for the duration of the session; In fact, your first lift should be with the 45lb barbell and you should fail the lift on purpose, then you can see how much clearance there is between you and the safety pins. This will also show you where on the safety pins your chest and head stick out so that when you roll the 45lb barbell horizontally, you will see which parts of your body stick out and above the safety pins. For example, if you failed doing a 140% lift and the bar came crashing down on you, you would know where to direct the bar so that it doesn’t break your nose or your sternum. I once forgot to adjust the safety pins when I was doing bench press by myself in the gym and I failed at 335lbs on my third rep. The safety pins were on notch lower then what I thought they were! Luckily I have failed before on a regular bench without safety pins so I knew that there were two ways to save my life. The first was to move the bar up/down sideways so that the weights would fall off of the bar; unfortunately, the bar had saftey clamps (why do we use saftey clamps in the first place? So the gym owners don’t get there precious floor wrecked!). My second option was to roll the bar down my chest to my groin at which point I could then sit up and unload the bar onto the saftey pins. I utilized the second option by wrist curling the barbell down to my groin! After that experience I never start doing lifts inside a power rack without testing to see where the safety pins are, even if I know that they should be inserted into the number 3 slots! I always fail on purpose with my warmup lift just to be on the safe side!
If you reread my previous posts in this thread and you are familiar with CFTS system as well as DOMS then you will see that these eccentric lifts need at least 3 days to recover from initially! In the CFTS, you cannot do eccentrics on the Mon or Wed session bc there is simply not enough time to recover before your next session; however, after the Friday session you can recover from eccentrics in time for the Mon session! Also your body will adapt to the new load and your recovery might be faster but then this is where you as the coach ask your athlete if they feel tight or any difference in their next lifting session! When doing bench press, if they feel like something is going to snap or they start clinching their shoulder a couple of times bc they feel something isn’t right, then this is generally a sign that an injury is about to occur! So stop their session immedietely when it pertains to that particular exercise and muscle group (stop doing any chest exercises but continue doing lower body exercises). In fact, this doesn’t just pertain to eccentrics but any heavy strength lifting in general! You will usually get some sort of signs from your body telling you to stop!
BTW, this by no means a personal attack on anybody but you have no business doing eccentrics if for example you cannot bench at least 315lbs and squat 405lbs. These numbers are arbitrary but I haven’t seen anybody at any age/level who can’t do these if they lift properly and continually! Stagnation is the only time when eccentrics should be introduced and stagnation should be determined by the coach not the athlete!
P.S. If you have stagnated and all other methods to overcome stagnation have already been utilized then eccentrics must be used in order for the athlete to progress in sprinting; otherwise, his competition will consistently defeat the athlete bc the competition utilizes eccentrics!
In line with Charlies thoughts on speed drills in the GPP DVD, “Slow it down, get it right, then speed it up!” and also with his Plyometric progression graphs,
I believe when considering using eccentrics, wt. releasers, and bands. One should first do the simple movements before progressing to the more complex ones.
A Simple Progression,
-
Eccentrics
-
Wt. Releasers
-
Bands (you have your spotters let go of the bands for the concentric phase)
-
Wt. releasers with Bands (you have your spotters let go of the bands for the concentric phase)
-
Drop catch plyometric Bench Press, Adam Archuletta does this on the Smith machine. You could do this with Squats; however I would limit the squats to 1/4 squats in order to take advantage of the Myotactic Stretch Reflex! When you think about that way this option 5 would fit in line more so with the last 2 weeks of the CFTS before a competition! Think about this option 5 has a plyo exercise not a strength one! I believe Shroeder’s guidelines are 34-42% of 1RM; however, with the knowledge I have obtained I believe in the last two weeks of the SPP before a competition you only want a 10% increase in resistance work directed towards plyo’s and sprinting in order to make the entire Force-Velocity curve shift upwards! So where Shroeder’s 34-42% plyo exercises would fit in is beyond me? Although one possible way is to do these exercises (for one week duration before the) 3 weeks before a competition. Or do these exercises two weeks before the competition and then switch over to the 10% resistance/plyo work one week before the competition?
I would need Charlie’s help on this one! So much for a simple progression! :eek:
Regarding progressions 3 and 4. F=MA, With option 3 the A (acceleration) gets higher and this will shift the force velocity curve up on the strengh portion. With option 4 it does the same but shifts curve higher bc more F (force) is produced with the Wt. Releasers and the Bands! However, depending on how much Acceleration can be generated (i.e. more bands=greater acceleration assumedly) the
viewer might want to switch 3 and 4 around in order to work the A/acceleration part (this would shift the entire force-velocity curve upwards) more so towards competition time.
If you are having confusion about the F=MA equation take a look at my posts on these threads.
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=5955&page=26&pp=15
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=5955&page=27&pp=15