Debate: Anaerobic Lactate Power

[DaGovernor]

@QUIKAZHELL

Chris,
At the level you are at right now why not do your short accel before your lactate work but cut the volume and the other day do some sort of neuromuscular speed end. work such as 3x3x60-80 with 2 mins after reps and 6-8 after sets. In everything you have said i think in your condition you may benefit more from that type of work. You can maybee even do some short accel work before the speed end.

thoughts?

But if chris were to do it the way you are telling him to, where does the top speed work (ex. flying sprints) come in to play?

[DaGovernor]

@ACOOPER

Good thought provoking thread man. I think the debate is how specific should work in the gym be?

Some of my thoughts are; CTFS philosophy is to use strength training to build maximum strength and power with any crossover occuring in sprint training, which makes up the majority of the work. But looking at the case of longer sprinters should we tailor the weight training to work in the same sort of energy pathways used in the longer sprints, i.e. anaerobic lactate, i think short recoveries between sets is the way to go.

Following reading a lot of DB’s stuff i’m inclined to think that there shouldn’t be such a divide between ‘track work’ and ‘strength work’ and more that the strength work should compliment the track work you are doing. CT has backed up the idea that working in one neuro type/bracket in a training stimulus (1 day of training followed by supercomp.) with findings with his athletes so my current level of understanding has lead me to organise sessions as: (not necissarily in the order shown)

Max speed day:

Track; flyin 20-30m, accl’s etc… (classified as rate-magnitude and in the 3-10s bracket)
Strength; low rep, long recovery lifts (this would be magnitude and in a similar energy bracket)

Special Endurance day: (lactate power)

Track; special end. runs 150-300m etc… (rate-magnitude in the 15-40s anaerobic latic energy bracket)
Strength; low-moderate reps, short rec. (short rec. utilises the same energy pathway)

Endurance day: (lactate capacity)

Track; Int. tempo (self explanitry)
Strength; moderate-high reps, short rec. - depletion push up, long dist A-B skips.

I think one other issuse regarding higher reps etc… is that hypertrophy is increased, but my question is; is the hypertrophy all bad, it occurs as an adpation to the demands placed on the body so will it aid your event, for example larger cross sectional muscles would be more tolerant to high levels of acidosis, it is these levels of acidosis created by short recoveries that have in part created the adaption in the first place?

When you say long recovery lifts, how much recovery time would you suggest?

[DaGovernor]

@ACOOPER

Yeah those reps seem good.

As for periodisation i would organise work on a supply for demand system. So i would work from a base plan of say short-to-long and use this merely as a guide for the direction of development. The goal of the season would be to start from accl’s and max speed and move through the yr turning the focus towards increasing speed endurance and special endurance. But at any point through out the season i would split what would be 3 sessions in a 7 day (1 week) microcyle into focus and supplementry with the balance between the No. of focus sessions and No. of supplementry per week depenent on how much supplementry work was required at a given time. Gym sessions would be placed on the days on which the type of session is targeting what is a weakness for you.

I’ll try to clarify this with a couple of examples:

1. Lets say an 400m athlete is in pre-competition phase of the season. The focus of this time of the season has been decided as special endurance and strength development is in the special endurance anergy bracket. Supplementry work is max speed. the MWF week would look like:

Mon- Special end. (3 x 300m) - Gym - 3x8 reps w/60s recovery

Wed- Max Speed. (4 x flyin 20m, 4 x 60m bends) - No demand no Gym

Fri- Special end. (5 x 200m) - Gym - 4x6 reps w/60s recovery

2. This time the 400m athlete is in the same phase but is lacking power and speed, the week would be organised to correct the balance as:

Mon - Max Speed. - Gym - 4x2 reps w/3min rec.

Wed - Special end. - (3 x 300m) - No Gym

Fri - Max Speed. - Gym - 3x3 reps w/3min rec.

3. Finally consider a 400m athlete who has more than sufficient speed but is lacking endurance.

Mon- Special end. (4 x 40m 2 x 300m) (the 40s are to maintain speed and act as power work)

Wed - Intensive Tempo (3x3x150m 90s/4min rec.) - Gym - 3x12 reps w/45s rec.

Fri- Special end. (5 x 200m) - Gym - 4x8 reps w/60s recovery

I hope these examples make sense, it’s a bit hard to right down exactly what i’m thinking. And they are only very loose examples so don’t over analyse them.

So in conclusion you would have focus sessions in line with the development area you are in, in your periodised yr, the supplementry work is to build any weaknesses and the balance is addressed acordingly depending on how weak you are in a given area, and gym work is used either on focus days if your training balnce is inline with your periodisation or on supplementry work if you are some what off target. In areas that you’re strong then no gym work is needed and the focus is on quality sessions.

Alan.

These all sound like great ideas (especially example #1). But what if your meet is on Saturday? Could you still do the Special Enduranc session on Friday, or would you need to adjust something? And if you do, what do you need to change?

[DaGovernor]

@QUIKAZHELL

“When you do the 3-3 x 120-150 workout, how much rest are you getting between sets/reps? At what intensity is this session?”

15 minutes.

“I don’t know about the 4 x 300 @ 90% with 10 min. rest session being lactate tolerance. That workout is more quality than tolerance. You may achieve some burn, but not enough to consider it lactate tolerance.”

No way!!! It sounds like it but no. We are 35 point 300 meter runners. In that particular workout we ran 37,37,42,43!!!After that second rep your legs are in complete burn like you just finished the 400 in a meet and that burn last almost right up until the next rep hence the 42!! Then the last rep is pretty much we have not a single thing left and we are jogging… Hence the 43! This workout is not quality after the first 2 reps it is lactate tolerance. Try it yourself or with your athletes.

As I am going back looking at my workout journal, you may be right. I based my opinion off of me thinking that I was doing those sessions. I had actually been doing the same distance, reps, etc. Just with 15 min. rest vs. only 10. I’d assume the extra 5 min. takes some of the lactate away. Thoughts?

Also, I have a freshman who is a 1:08.8 second 400 runner. Her 100m splits are 15.04, 16.75, 18.01, 19.00. Would the 4 x 300 @ 10 min. rest work to make her 100m splits faster, or does this session accomplish something else?

[QUIKAZHELL]

yea the extra 5 mins 15 as opposed to 10 makes a huge difference. Thats 33.3% more rest.

[DaGovernor]

@QUIKAZHELL

yea the extra 5 mins 15 as opposed to 10 makes a huge difference. Thats 33.3% more rest.

What about the other question I asked you.

I have a freshman who is a 1:08.8 second 400 runner. Her 100m splits are 15.04, 16.75, 18.01, 19.00. Would the 4 x 300 @ 10 min. rest work to make her 100m splits faster, or does this session accomplish something else?

[QUIKAZHELL]

Splits of 31 and 37 are a huge differencial. Even the 100 200 type runners who occassionally run the 400 manage a 4 second differential which still is alot.
Since she is young many factors may attribute to her splits. We need more backround first. Training age and p.r.'s in other events would help.

However a lacate tolerance workout such as the one i mentioned would help her in the end of her 400. What the goal of lactate tolerance workouts are is to teach a runner to run with lactic acid and or cause an adaptation of there body to actually buffer it. (Since the body always adapts and try to protect itself from the same happening again). Also a lactate tolerance workout gets the body acustomed to converting lactate into pyruvate to make new ATP via the Krebs Cycle/// Electron transport chain.

Members please correct me if i am wrong.

[DaGovernor]

@QUIKAZHELL

Splits of 31 and 37 are a huge differencial. Even the 100 200 type runners who occassionally run the 400 manage a 4 second differential which still is alot.
Since she is young many factors may attribute to her splits. We need more backround first. Training age and p.r.'s in other events would help.

However a lacate tolerance workout such as the one i mentioned would help her in the end of her 400. What the goal of lactate tolerance workouts are is to teach a runner to run with lactic acid and or cause an adaptation of there body to actually buffer it. (Since the body always adapts and try to protect itself from the same happening again). Also a lactate tolerance workout gets the body acustomed to converting lactate into pyruvate to make new ATP via the Krebs Cycle/// Electron transport chain.

Members please correct me if i am wrong.

Training age: 2nd season

PR’s:
100m - 13.9 (ran it one time last year)
200m - 29.68 (ran it our first indoor meet this year (Jan. 11), hasn’t ran this distnace since)
400m - 1:05.7 (last year at league meet, end of season)
800m - 2:35.0 (last year in a dual meet)
Pole Vault (in case you are curious) - 9’0"

If you need any more info please let me know.

[DaGovernor]

I’d also like to know how long do you think it would take for this workout to show its effects? Maybe you can’t be exact but take an educated guess.

[QUIKAZHELL]

I hate to say it but right now Its very hard to tell anytihng from your athletes performances.They are all over the place! The 13.9 sounds like her best race but the 29 simply does not add up and the 1.05 does not add up to the 200. At this point there is nothing i can say until she competes more and becomes more consistent. I wish her the best of luck!

[DaGovernor]

You’re right. They are all over the place. But thanks again for your help.

[Dazed]

@QUIKAZHELL

No way!!! It sounds like it but no. We are 35 point 300 meter runners. In that particular workout we ran 37,37,42,43!!!After that second rep your legs are in complete burn like you just finished the 400 in a meet and that burn last almost right up until the next rep hence the 42!! Then the last rep is pretty much we have not a single thing left and we are jogging… Hence the 43! This workout is not quality after the first 2 reps it is lactate tolerance. Try it yourself or with your athletes.

I’ve done this exact session earlier this year and didn’t find it to acumulate lactic at all - Managed to run them in 34.1, 33.7, 33.2, 32.9.
How did you build into this session? With 10 minutes recovery if you’ve established a decent lactic tolerance developed your aerobic system, you should be able to do this session within 1 1/2 seconds of your PB with out too much drop off.

[Dazed]

@QUIKAZHELL

What the goal of lactate tolerance workouts are is to teach a runner to run with lactic acid and or cause an adaptation of there body to actually buffer it. (Since the body always adapts and try to protect itself from the same happening again). Also a lactate tolerance workout gets the body acustomed to converting lactate into pyruvate to make new ATP via the Krebs Cycle/// Electron transport chain.

Members please correct me if i am wrong.

Certainly on the right track

The muscle cell doesn’t actually convert lactate to pyruvate. When Glycogen is broken down through means of anaerobic glycolysis, it is only partially broken down and pyruvate is left over. If there is sufficient oxygen present and if the aerobic enzymes are able to keep up with demand, the pyruvate is completely broken down to create energy. If there is not sufficient oxygen or aerobic efficiency, pyruvate is then combined with 2 hydrogen ions during the NADH->NAD+ regeneration process to produce lactate. (To keep it short ive simplified it a bit.)

The key is to increase the VO2 max and the efficiency of both aerobic and anaerobic enzymes (among many other things), so that lactic acid does not get a chance to accumulate.

With regards to the adaptation through protection, it’s important that this is done little by little as the body can down regulate it’s output if it senses too great a danger in much the same manner as the body reacts to maximal loads (This actually supports Noakes central governance theory).

[Dazed]

I’m surprised that there hasn’t been much discussion of Charlies split reps in this forum.

Earlier I mentioned the 3x3x100m. What is this session if it isn’t a split 300?

[DaGovernor]

I’m interested in what Charlie thinks about the messages I have posted recently.

I don’t really understand what you’re asking but if I am guessing right on what you’re asking then that session is a Speed Endurance/Lactate tolerance workout.

[athlete_400m]

@Dazed

I’m surprised that there hasn’t been much discussion of Charlies split reps in this forum.

Earlier I mentioned the 3x3x100m. What is this session if it isn’t a split 300?

Dazed,

I thought about this too. From my (limited) understanding, though, they are not the same. Just to make sure we are on the same wave-length here is a sample session:

Sample Split-Rep Session
2-3 x (100+100+100) 30-90 secs between reps/ full recovery between sets.

Full recovery between sets, as opposed to the 3mins in ‘your’ session, I think, changes the emphasis of the session. Charlie’s split reps allows an earlier intensification of a full 300m run (>95%), by effectively breaking up the run.

‘Your’ session doesn’t provide this full recovery. I s’pse its the difference between:

2-3 x 300 w/ full recovery

-and-

3 x 300m w/ 3min recovery.

Special Endurance vs. Lactate Capacity work??

[jmf]

This is interesting. In the first and best ever 400m thread a couple of years ago I picked up a lot of useful training ideas but came away with the feeling that working the 400 like a short sprinter - with only one or maybe two SE practices a week would leave one undertrained for the last 250 metres of the race.

Getting to the question, what would you say is the upper limit of SE workouts that one (let’s say a 50 point guy) could handle in a week?

[Dazed]

@jmf

This is interesting. In the first and best ever 400m thread a couple of years ago I picked up a lot of useful training ideas but came away with the feeling that working the 400 like a short sprinter - with only one or maybe two SE practices a week would leave one undertrained for the last 250 metres of the race.

Getting to the question, what would you say is the upper limit of SE workouts that one (let’s say a 50 point guy) could handle in a week?

What kind of tempo work were you doing?

I personally don’t like SE work outs that much, they leave me tight and even when running 39 seconds for 350 i rarely get lactic, so I don’t think I could comment with out prejudice.

[athlete_400m]

@jmf

This is interesting. In the first and best ever 400m thread a couple of years ago I picked up a lot of useful training ideas but came away with the feeling that working the 400 like a short sprinter - with only one or maybe two SE practices a week would leave one undertrained for the last 250 metres of the race.

Getting to the question, what would you say is the upper limit of SE workouts that one (let’s say a 50 point guy) could handle in a week?

Doesn’t Charlie’s 400m program not include what he terms SE2 work (e.g. 2x600) and ^ tempo (3000m per session). This would cover all bases in the 400m if (emphasis on the ‘if’) you follow this system.

Further to this, Clemson (same thread??) suggested the use of intermediate work during unloading weeks something like 2-3 times a year to make sure all bases were covered (excuse my crap way of putting things)

Dazed,
why would SE work leave you ‘tight’?! Would short speed sessions/ 200 or 400m races leave you feeling the same?

[Dazed]

@athlete_400m

Doesn’t Charlie’s 400m program not include what he terms SE2 work (e.g. 2x600) and ^ tempo (3000m per session). This should cover all bases in the 400m if (emphasis ‘if’) you follow this system.

Dazed,
why would SE work leave you ‘tight’?! Would short speed sessions/ 200 or 400m races leave you feeling the same?

Racing is fine, speed is fine, I can even handle high volumes of plyo’s but bashing out a couple of 500’s in 62 or 300’s in 32-33 seconds leves me tighter than other sessions (not stiff as a board, but the type that catches up with you over a few sessions) for some reason, without alot of benefit. I think it may be the sustained “speed impact” as clemson coined it. The tightness is usually fascial in nature and is a bitch to get rid of.