Ok, the debate I would like to start here is if the forum believe that in order to achieve an ultimate Anaerobic lactate power ability the athlete has first to work adequate time on lactate capacity and then move on to train his power.
Is it possible to skip the first part in training and start immediate with high intensities and long rest time? Would this type of training be accepted and would it be a path to success for running a fast (<20.00sec) 200m ?
Sounds like we’re getting back into the “Kenteris training” method discussions.
It could be anybody, even you…
But I’m sorry I didn’t read your position on the questions.
Personally I prefer maximizing anaerobic lactate capacity then power. However, what if you started training late, and as a result you needed to speed the process and work on lactate power and eliminate capacity. Could you succeed with this type of training?
First off are we talking about lacate tolerance when we talk about lactate capacity?
Our coach has us going from tolerance to power. For example right now we are doing lactate sessions such as 4x300 with 10 misn rest. The last 2 are brutal and your legs burn for the full 10 mins. Yesterday indoors we hit them in 37,37,43,42. (We are 35 sec runners.). Later on this will change to 2-3x300 or 350 or 300 200 150 or something like that with full recovery later on to 3-3x120-150 when we are trying to peak.
Charlie, were do you stand on this topic ? Would a 200m runner be able to run the last 50m under or close to 5.00 if he only train on lactate power in training and never lactate capacity ?
Maybe the only difference is the more time needed to adaptate.
Any comments ?
Would you be able to define what you mean by Lactate Capacity and Lactate Power?
Take a look at the research by George Brooks on the subject of lactate. Check Pub Med for Brooks GA.
I also posted a link in Nutrition Discussions under Cytomax for a list of Brooks’ publications.
Dr. George Brooks at the University of California Berkely is a heavy hitter in the exercise physiology community. Needless to say there are numerous studies to back up the science behind Cytomax. Dr. Brooks’ work on the use of lactate and the “Crossover Concept” are groundbreaking on understanding substate utilization.
Here is his lastest text-
Exercise Physiology Human Bioenergetics and Its Applications with PowerWeb
Author(s): George Brooks Thomas Fahey Kenneth Baldwin Timothy White
ISBN: 0072560444
DOI: 10.1036/0072560444
Format: Hardcover, 784 pages.
Pub date: November 20, 2001
Copyright: 2000
$89.37 USD
For a list of Dr. Brooks publications-
http://ib.berkeley.edu/labs/brooks/
And important thing to remember about the Cytosport line is that the company manufactures all of its products inhouse and does not produce any prohormone products.
Cytomax is unique for a number of reasons- their web sites says it well.
http://www.cytosport.com/science/cytomaxdiffers.html
HOW CYTOMAX DIFFERS FROM OTHER SPORT DRINKS
Cytomax is a fluid and electrolyte replacement drink like no other. It goes beyond just delivering sodium, potassium and sugars, which is what most sport drinks supply. It provides the athlete with an organic and inorganic form of Polylactate, sodium and potassium succinates as well as the amino acids L-glutamine and L-alanine. All these compounds work together to give the athlete a venue of rehydration, electrolyte replacement, energy fuel, and a buffer that allows them to effectively reduce muscle cramping. This translates into better performance and decreased recovery time.
ALPHA-L-POLYLACTATE
Polylactate is a polymer of the lactate molecule. It is a series of L-lactate molecules bound together with amino acids and pyruvate. But, unlike lactic acid (C3H6O3), Polylactate is not an acid! Simply put, it is lactic acid with the acid component removed. Although not apparent, there is a difference.
By reacting the lactic acid with certain amino acids the acid leaves the resulting molecule. This allows the lactate to be utilized rapidly to supply energy, maintain blood sugar (glucose), and neutralize (buffer) acids that are naturally produced in the body, including lactic acid. You could then say that lactate serves to balance out the acidic pH induced by the presence of lactic acid.
When muscles use blood sugar or stored carbohydrate (glycogen), much of these carbohydrates end up as lactic acid, a very strong organic acid. Under normal conditions, almost all the lactic acid formed in the body breaks down to 98.9% lactate, and 1.1% hydrogen ions or protons. These protons are the acidic part of lactic acid. The production and removal of lactic acid are normally in balance so that despite rapid production, little accumulates. In the past, scientists believed that during exercise lactate was the “dead- end metabolite” which was produced as a result of insufficient oxygen being present which resulted in fatigue. In contrast, we know that lactic acid is produced all the time in many cells, tissues and in muscle, even at rest when there is plenty of oxygen around. Only when the production of lactic acid exceeds the rate of removal does the acid part of the molecule linger to cause a burning sensation and fatigue that makes the athlete want to quit activity.
Therefore, if muscle effectively uses carbohydrates faster than lipids, more energy is available for a given oxygen supply and muscles contract more forcefully when carbohydrates are used as fuels. Moreover, by releasing lactate during exercise, some muscles can fuel other muscles, including the heart which consumes and utilizes lactate from the blood. Additionally, the liver takes lactate from the blood and produces carbohydrate for the muscles during exercise! In fact, the liver consumes two lactates and two acid protons to make one sugar molecule.
From the above you can see that: If the body needs and uses lactate, but the body suffers if hydrogen ions accumulate and causes lactic acidosis, then provide the body with what it uses most rapidly, and give it something which will help remove the acid protons formed during exercise. The answer is Polylactate, because it restores the balance of salt and acid by providing lactate molecules, but without that acid component. End result- less muscle burning and fatigue.
The active ingredients in Cytomax are composed mainly of the organic compound, Polylactate, but also a small amount of inorganic potassium and sodium forms of lactate. In this case, lactate is used to carry and replenish the salts lost in sweat during exercise as well as stimulate thirst insuring hydration. However, relative to energy use, inorganic salt loss during exercise is slow. Therefore, should someone try and replace energy during exercise by using an inorganic salt such as sodium, potassium or calcium lactate, the lactate would rapidly be removed leaving a large salt load with dehydration being the end result. Instead, with the completely organic Polylactate in which amino acids are used to carry the lactate molecules, the body is provided substances all of which are useful during exercise and recovery.
AMINO ACIDS AND SUCCINATES
Cytomax also contains the amino acids L-glutamine and L-alanine, since these play a key roll in the process of gluconeogenesis and the removal of ammonium ions from the blood.
During exercise amino acids pools in skeletal muscle are compromised in order to deliver these glucose producing amino acids to the liver. There they will be deaminated and the carbon skeletons of most (mostly alanine) will be used for fuel. This process depletes muscle protein and consequently hinders muscle mass. By providing these two amino acids, Cytomax ensures that both plasma levels and intramuscular amino acids pools have enough aminos for fuel to go around.
Cytomax also contains Succinate ETF in the form of calcium, magnesium and potassium succinates, as well as inosine.
Succinates is a Krebs cycle intermediate. It occurs normally within aerobic cells, such as muscle. Succinate supplements such as Succinate ETF increase maximal oxygen consumption and high-intensity exercise capacity by enhancing the ability to use lactic acid as a fuel during exercise.
In summary, for replacing fluid and electrolytes, providing energy, stimulating body glucose production, buffering the effects of acids produced during exercise, maintaining amino acid pools in muscle and enhancing the use of lactic acid, consider using CYTOMAX which is blended with all of these processes in mind.
Bang for the buck (4.5 lb can- 82 servings) can be purchased from a variety of internet sources for under $30 USD- a real bargain.
Does this negate the training effect by reducing the stimulus? It may be useful for competition, however I’d be weary of training with it.
Tom,
Ok I will buy Cytomax but still you didn’t gave your opinion on my very first debate - question. I think you have much more to say about that.
Lactate capacity will occur when you try the following training session:
8x200 in 26-28sec with 2min rest between. (20.70 - 45.40 level runner)
Example of Lactate Power session:
3x200 at 95% plus, with 45min rest between.
Linarski,
are those examples you gave Exactly what you are refering to or is that the upper and lower limits for sake of arguement of both. Because surely lacate capacity and power work is in a much broader range (obviously you know that) so my question is how about sessions such as…
Lacate Capacity (tolerance)
4x300 90% 10 mins rest.
or
3x 200 rest 90" 200 10 mins rest between sets.
Also the capacity work you mentioned seemed like intensive tempo (although intensive tempo is a form of lactate capacity work) since the goal pace was sooooooo slow (around 75-80% for a 21.0 200 meter runner)
but would the kind of lactate capacity work i mentioned be of better benefit since it is alot close to race pace?
Sorry if my post is unorganized… i had alot of thoughts on this topic going through my head and i typed it up rather quickly before practice…
Linarski,
Whilst there are probably exceptions, personal experience and observation suggest to me that it would be more effective to start off with oxygen debt type of work before moving into the stuff closer to race pace.
Begining with the lactate capacity work tends to prime the athletes system for the later lactate power work, by increasing the efficiency of the mitochondria, aerobic and anaerobic enzymes, improving technical efficiency, and increasing fuel stores. It is also capable of generating much higher levels of lactic than the higher intensity work with much less stress being placed on the body thus enabling it to be performed more often.
I think bypassing this work increases the risk of injury and leaves to many cards on the table, besides I don’t really see the point of doing super fast work all year round …
Can you give an example of “oxygen debt type of work”
Reps/sets % of effort etc?
Thanks 
No worries,
Oxygen debt is essentially where the demand for oxygen during glycolysis out strips its availability. As a result of this deficit, most of the pyruvic acid produced is converted into lactic acid (instead of being further broken down by the aerobic process) and tends to accumulate before diffusing into the blood stream.
You can controll the levels of lactate accumulation by playing around with the recovery, sets and percentage. Linarski’s 200m (8x200m w/ short recovery) model isn’t a bad example of this.
A very good example is MJ’s 350m work out. Lactic acid really starts to accumulate over the 40second mark (with sufficiant intenisty), and LA levels peak at around the 3 minute mark. The result of a 350m session being run at approx 44-45 seconds with 3 min recovery would be a massive production of accumulation of lactatic acid, providing a great training stimulus for the long sprinter, to which the body has to adapt to. You can play around with distances etc to achieve similar results; I find 3x3x100m with 45seconds between reps and 3 min between sets have a similar effect. The key is to really have nothing left at the end of the last rep.
I would cofirm that. The lactate levels after such a session equate to 30mm/l wery very high. After a maximal 100m sprint elite sprinters register 13-16mm/l. 60-70 % of energy for 60m-200m is provided by glycolysis. Glycolysis is a major function of reactive strength from 30-200m for short sprinters.
I would cofirm that. The lactate levels after such a session equate to 30mmol/l wery very high. After a maximal 100m sprint elite sprinters register 13-16mmol/l. 60-70 % of energy for 60m-200m is provided by glycolysis. Glycolysis is a major function of reactive strength from 30-200m for short sprinters. So in order to reach and maintain top speed you need to have the capacity and the power to produce lactate energy.
“besides I don’t really see the point of doing super fast work all year round …”
Dazed,
You mention “leaving too many cards on the table” as a possible reason but are speed and lactate capacity work neccesarily mutually exclusive?
Can both not co-exist with ratios changing through the year with a move from lacatate capacity work to lactate power later in the year? Are you implying that during periods of lactate threshold work (e.g. given, 3x3x100) you perform no ‘pure’ speed work?
An “ends to middle” approach, perhaps.
btw love an old long-to-short thread!