eliminates some rear chain stress. It kinda become a little like a squat due to hand placement. I work with mostly football players and I only have line and big skill dead in gpp. Seems when they get to far into intensification, backs start getting real sore.

That’s weird you guys experience back issues with the deadlifts. I have done deadlifts in gpp and snatch deadlifts off a 4in block in spp with zero issues. I kept the volume lower in both blocks gpp 3x5-8 and spp 3x3-5. First 10 was off the chains…

they are always pushing too hard. Most of them have no issues, some sore backs when the weight gets up over 405. I have 4 or 5 high school kids who can do 495+ deadlift without issue. I just worry about the risk of a tweak. We follow 531 template on core lifts and trust me, the 531 days scare me toward end of max strength. Even doing everything tight and controlled, there is always the risk of injury. Glad we are pushing speed at max and reducing weight work. Everyone is healthy and strong as hell. Now, just hone speed until camp and then all the good work wil get thrown out the window when the college and high school coaches run them into the ground.

Yeah, numbers mean nothing to me. Two of the fastest guys I ran against in HS were 0lb’s in the squat, dead or squat with heavy emphasis on great core strength, bodyweight exercises, jump rope & genetics & (THEY were fast).

I certainly ain’t gonna start training like Jim Wendler in the weight room. Until guys at westside are blazin’ past me, I ain’t taking note.

In fact even though he gets criticized heavily on these forums, I prefer Barry Ross’s program.

different with footbal from track though. You just can’t emphasize speed. Strength is a very real part of their game. Speed only gets you so far. In your sport, speed is all that matters, so I agree with you on that. In football you need to be strong and capable of taking a pounding game after game. We have had one major injury in the past 15 years, that was a non contact ACL. I like what we do, great results, no injuries. One of my kids just got a handwritten letter from UCLA, got invitied to throw at Purdue’s camp, was being watched by MSU and was getting a lot of love from Michigan QB coach at their camp. He is going to be a sophomore next season. Already rated the best frosh QB in Michigan. Ran 4.63 at U of M, can put it out there about 60 yds. At 6’2" and 185, he needs to get bigger and stronger and he will be fine.

That’s fair enough.

My favorite football player of all time was Primetime. Was he ‘strong’?. Most corners I’ve seen don’t look particular strong but look blazin’.

Looking strong and being strong is totally different.

Well said RB34. The kid who holds the deadlift record for my facility is 6’3" 215lb safety. He deadlifted 560, squatted 500+ and benched 300+ during max testing. I have kids who are 6’7" 325 and can’t touch him. He runs 4.5 and hits like a truck, just doesn’t look like the monster he is.

Send him to Mississippi State. Those other schools don’t want him.

Having reviewed the discussion here, I see that it is important to clarify something:

‘Strength’ must be assigned context because strength itself is absolutely specific to the means by which it is manifested.

A deadlift, a squat, a bench press, a powerclean, and so on, are only assured to demonstrate how much load an individual can overcome in those exact exercises. Any transfer to movements other than those exercises will vary from one individual to the next based upon a host factors; most of which are encompassed by morphobiomechanics.

In order to be assured more and more transfer the exercise itself must begin to approximate the dynamics of the competition exercise.

This is why Charlie’s general organism strength principle is genius. Charlie left the specific work to sprints, resisted sprints (sled, hills) and drills themselves (as specific as it gets) and the rest to general organism strength.

What most don’t realize is that it demands incredible ‘strength’ to sprint very fast; however, this strength is often not demonstrated on barbell exercises because there are no barbell exercises that closely transfer to sprinting at or near +12m/s at max V.

Rest assured, Tommy Smith, Carl Lewis, Bolt, and all the other taller sprinters, who were/are not known for their focus or ability to lift large barbell loads, were/are extremely ‘strong’.

How do we quantify this ‘strength’ you might ask…

By using our stop watch.

Sprinting IS specific strength- strength specific to mobilizing oneself down the track at the highest possible speed.

So as far as the training for speed goes, trust me in that the ‘strength’ training MUST be individualized to each sprinter. It is for this reason why a group of sprinters may all run 12m/s with Ben Johnson lifting massive barbell loads, Carl Lewis not lifting barbells much at all, Asafa Powell conservatively, by comparison, weight training, Gay doing whatever he does with his personal trainer (certainly doesn’t appear to be any heavy lifting involved) and Bolt using mostly machines with low loads.

While my fastest guys are obviously not at the level of 12m/s they are fast within the context of American football distances and I have a handful of players who run high 4.3/low 4.4 (hand timed) some of who squat, some leg press, some split squat with dumbbells, and so on. It only matters that the individual is sufficiently stimulated optimally relative to no one other than themselves.

Put simply, do only what you must do to improve the result.

As speed coach notes, there is a substantially greater ‘strength’ requirement for American football. In this case the ‘strength’ is not only demonstrated in mobilizing the players around the field but also in overcoming and resisting the inertia from their opponents.

But again, this ‘strength’ doesn’t necessarily rely upon the use of barbell exercise. I have seen over and over again the use of technical-tactical maneuvering and leveraging/positioning win the battle over an opponent who can lift heavier barbells.

Resistance training is what assists in improving strength (don’t be concerned with EMS at the moment). Lifting weights is only one small, albeit common, means of resistance training.

Use your imagine and you’ll note just how free one is to become ‘stronger’ via resistance training even if they have no access to the conventional apparatus.

We must only become ‘specific’ when we discuss specific objectives. Hence, there is no arguments against the fact that, at the very least:

  • sprinters must sprint
  • Olympic weightlifters must snatch and C&J
  • powerlifters must squat, bench, deadlift
  • hammer throwers must throw the hammer
  • shot putters must put the shot
  • discus throwers must throw the disc
  • javelin throwers must throw the javelin
  • high jumper must high jump
  • long jumpers must long jump
  • triple jumpers must triple jump
  • pole vaulters must pole vault
  • strongmen must overcome their implements
    and so on and so forth.

Any other training exercises must ultimately be used on an case by case basis in order to support the increase of the competition exercise for that individual, prevent against injury, support mobility, suppleness and the rest of the general preparatory needs.

To make blanket statements, regarding the efficacy of an exercise other than the competition exercise, to any group of participants in the same sport discipline is irresponsible.

We are only responsible in emphasizing the importance of exercises, other than the competition exercise, if we know that it positively transfers to the competition exercise across a broad population. For this to happen, the exercise must satisfy more and more criteria of dynamic correspondence.

It’s not what most want to hear, because it requires more time and effort; however, the reality is that each and every athlete deserves an individualized program. The degree to which this is logistically feasible is ultimately a question of the coach’s commitment and, in the case of team sports, the athletes trainability and work habits.

I lead by example in this case as the only exercises that I require my players to perform are those that I know directly transfer to improved sport form.

I agree with speedcoach. The strength required in football covers a wider spectrum than for sprinters. The strength displayed by sprinters is realized at the far right (short duration, high velocity) end of the curve. Much of the strength utilized in football (some positions) occurs at much slower velocities, even zero velocity, and much longer durations. High resistance exercises such as squat, deadlift, and benchpress, among others, are very appropriate means for developing the high force, low velocity, long(er) duration, end of the curve. Many studies show that, while improvements in high force/low velocity strength can lead to transference across a broad portion of the curve, the transference for high velocity, short duration strength is more specific to the training velocity, and faster, movements.

You and James both had excellent points on the topic. I agree that there is much more to football than speed. Proof is that most sprinters rarely fare well. There are the Jeff Demps and Trindon Hollidays who I call football players who happen to be good at track. I doubt they would be as good if they trained like sprinters year round and tried to play football. Like James said, one cannot summarily accept or dismiss an exercise from their training process based on their own personal bias. I have kids who get a great deal out of deadlifts from a performance standpoint and others who look awkward even with light weight. In GPP, I love RDL’s. As we go to SPP, I tend to diminish the load as speed focus predominates. My whole philosophy is creating a balanced organism from all facets. If I accomplish with deadlifts, squats, RDL,etc; so be it. The big issue I have is that so many college strength coaches are hung up on testing numbers. They emphasize this too much in my estimation. I had a 5’8" 170 lb D2 QB break the QB squat as a freshman. He hit 455 and trust me, the coaches were shocked. The consequence, he leap frogged 3 guys to the number 2 slot on depth chart. Why? My guess, they see he works hard off season and they like his commitment. Do I think it makes him a better player, not really.

Sounds like James program is more trackish and yours more heavy duty strength training?

We all have our own thoughts and ideas on how to do things. I have had great success doing things the way I do. James is obviously a brilliant man and has his own approach as is well documented. I look at it like this, there are a lot of roads that lead to the same destination. I had 8 kids I work with directly and indirectly get college scholarships last year. I feel pretty good when my kids go to school, make all the timed runs and are stand outs in testing. Does this mean they will be great? By no means, it just means they are more prepared then those they are judged against. Maybe it helps them get a better look, resulting in more PT. My fastest kid ran 4.31 hand last week at 225. He hasn’t done s**t all summer and is capable of going faster. Needs to shed 10 lbs of unwanted fat. He has met with Vikings scouts and will get legit shot at NFL. He was GVSU career rushing leader in 3 seasons. He is in another class of fast. Just for a joke, he ran a 100m. From standing start after speed work he ran 11 flat in running shoes from standing start. He was locked up from 50m on. With block work, flexibility, and special endurance work, he could easily run sub 10.5. I don’t train him that way because he need to hit max speed, decelerate and change direction as well as get hit 30+ times per game.

GVSU suck, we played them. My cousin plays at Saginaw Valley. I’m joking about GVSU!

Yes. I agree.

I am a Ferris grad but I have kids on GVSU, Wayne, SVSU, Northwood, and soon Tech. Even though I will always be a Dawg, I love watching these kids play. Some of them I have worked with since 5th grade. My wife hates the Friday high school thing. Never home during the fall. GVSU is turning into “The U”. Some mighty thuggish behavior going on. MIP’s, assaults, armed robberies, etc. Great winning, but at what cost? RB 34, where did you play?

UP baby… :slight_smile:

So, have we come to a decision to which variation of the DL is best for sprinting? or not?.

I would go with RDL myself.