But I need to build-up to a 600lb squat or deadlift (squats do very little for glute development BTW), isn’t my CNS going to suffer aiming for this poundage?. And does it only take 2 days to fully recover, particularly for a experienced lifter that has built up good efficiency?.
SLDLs definitely for hams/hip extension function.
What about snatch grip deads for overall hip development?. Do you know any cons to that lift?.
whenever i squat the only muscles i have seen significant growth in and are sore the next day are my glutes…
I’m not sure why you need to do a 600lb. squat, because been did? And wide box squats will definitely hit your glutes harder than deadlifts. If you want a big squat, then squat big.
SLDLs definitely for hams/hip extension function.
What about snatch grip deads for overall hip development?. Do you know any cons to that lift?.
Any full dead from the floor is going to be harder on you than box squats, and probably less effective for what you trying to accomplish. Stick to various squats, rack deadlifts, RDLs, SLDLs, goodmornings, and if you feel you’re still not hitting your glutes, pick one of Brett’s exercises and knock yourself out.
Come to think of it, I can’t think of a single sub-10 guy now that does DL.
They used to have a couple of good sprinters at Arkansas. One guy, J-Mee Samuels wrote on Trackshark that he was doing something like 360 bench and 450 squats in high school. The other guy, Tyson Gay, as a professional was doing 225 ATG squats, according to PJ.
You have to be strong enough, but only strong enough. I know which of those two guys I’d rather be.
if your glutes are sore, they’re probably comparably weak.
if they aren’t, then they probably aren’t.
(Assuming technique is a constant)
maybe, though i doubt once one gets to squats that hit parallel or below that quads would be the limiting muscle, maybe in quarter squats
i agree. i said the glutes though.
was that when I did it every week, I would get really sore in the lower back. I could do 545lbs for 8 reps, but every time I went up over 600lbs, I would hurt my SI joint. I guess there is something to me and 600+ barrier. I think from experience that I have witnessed massive gains with exposure every 14 days with my athletes. I just find that exposure every week just drained my guys too much. If we deadlifted one week, I would make sure they did a more metabolic workout the following week. I have had a handful of high school kids who deadlifted 500+ and squatted 455+ pretty regularly. I agree with you that RDL is perhaps a better exercise overall. I guess we all just need to find what works for us as individuals.
I suppose you make a valid point.
But isn’t max strength i.e superior strength (over the field) a resounding factor with regards to a great start & acceleration?.
Case in point. The 88’ Seoul race, which looks like it was won in the first 30m?. Was Ben’s overwhelming strength superiority the deciding factor here, over guys like Carl Lewis?.
Original Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCh5QswxQ6k
Sprinters of today don’t seem to be pulling/pushing these big numbers (Bolt/Gay/Collins etc), but never the less are running fast times.
So what is the overwhelming factor(s) here?., If not max strength, for guys not pushing the big numbers (Bolt/Gay)?. There all putting in the sprint training.
Is it greater core strength they have today?, elasticity?, enhanced surface etc or is just a case of superior genetics (born with fast legs)?.
Bolt/Gay don’t need a 600lb squat to be successful. So what characteristic(s) sets them apart, if not 600lb squat strength?.
Its all the above…depending on which sprinter you’re talking about. There are several factors that influence speed, and power is an important one. But as you approach sub-elite, and especially elite status, absolute strengths contribution to power production becomes secondary…as lkh just mentioned, “you have to be strong enough, but only strong enough”. There is no absolute number, but I can tell you that a sprinter taking his squat from 600 to 800 won’t benefit nearly as much as one taking it from 300 to 500 earlier in his/her career.
I do think absolute strength is important and I think the benchmark test for that is the squat, not the deadlift. I also think it is a very individual thing, meaning, just because you don’t have a big squat doesn’t mean you can’t be fast. But early in your training, especially if you are relatively weak in posterior chain, improving absolute strength is a good idea. At some point, maintaining that strength while focusing on power and other factors become more critical.
But back to the original discussion, full deadlifts are too costly in terms of CNS and overall body stress, IMHO, to be included in sprinters toolkit.
felt that super elastic guys like Carl Lewis benefit more from power training. They already have loads of elasticity, just need more power for start. It almost felt like Carl never improved in that area. It seems as though he always felt he could run Ben down after 70m. Ben got faster as he developed more elasticity. Due to this, he seemed to hold lewis off from closing. His power was mostly a byproduct of the wattage he put out at hip, not just purely from his squat. His squat numbers were greatly influenced by his sprinting.
i bet carl feared weight training would hurt his last 10-20m too much
the way i see it:
squats = help acceleration, but can hurt endurance if speed endurance isn’t emphasized. They can also tighten you up. Thats probably why some of those naturally gifted guys (at all levels) sometimes feel they are better off not utilizing strength work
too much straight track guys. Did all the weights for Olympic 100m sprinter from Ghana for a few years. He was brutally strong and built like a truck. Lower body was huge, upper was well developed, but more lithe. I mostly train football guys, and they don’t have the endurance work involved, so I am more oriented to that sport. Got a lot of explosively quick guys. That’s how I like em. Speed is great, but rarely used flat out in football.
Speedcoach I would disagree with your last statement about flat out speed not being used in football. Aside from the obvious that certain positions will not encounter such speeds, I would say that speed is the single most important fitness quality to develop in skill players, and even many semi skill players…sorry for hijack
Speedcoach is talking about training Max V. Rarely does an athlete have a 60m straight run that will allow him to reach his Max V. I would bet if 60 players touch the field, only one or two will reach his terminal Max V during a game. However acceleration is another matter. Improving a players ability to reach 90-95% of Max V quicker is more important. If player 1 improves his acceleration and can reach 95% of Max V quicker than before, but his Max V doesn’t change, he’s made significant progress that will contribute to his success on field. If player 2 improves his 100% Max V but his acceleration curve remains unchanged (only extended), he will have made little impact on his onfield performance.
is there a better way to improve acceleration than to improve the squat?
Practice accelerating.
It’s somewhere on these boards but Charlie once said he was giving a seminar and posed the question “how do you improve a vertical jump?”. He said people were throwing out all kinds ideas like squats, box squat, plyos, depth jumps, single leg work, stretching hip flexors, etc. After they were done with suggestions he told them not a single person mentioned actually practicing the vertical jump.
Lewis also had the long jump to consider. Any added weight would have to be carried 29 feet through the air.
Yes, I misinterpreted his statement. However, aside from the differences between maximal and operational outputs, I would say players reach their highest operational speeds more often than people think in Football. Also, in consideration of the varying levels of athletes, only elite ethletes are entering maxV at or around 60 meters. The vast majority of athletes that most of us will deal with enter it much sooner, making it that much more important to develop. Most high school athletes will have reached their top speed by 30 yards, college slightly further, and NFL further as well.
I agree with what you are saying I just thought it was important to point out these differences.
Fair enough. One important thing to keep in mind is that it is much easier to improve the first 20m of a 40m sprint than the last 20m.